TMMOT Thunderdome

General music discussion.
JennyB
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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by JennyB »

eumaas wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 2:27pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 2:21pm
matedog wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 1:26pm
Anyone catch my Clashy-ism above?
I did but forgot to acknowledge it. And I did laugh, for what it's worth. Oh Clashy, my handsome KFC-boycotting prince, I hope dad bought you a new Beemer to celebrate the tax cut.
I am in the middle of rereading that trainwreck.
Me too. My god, what an asshole.
Got a Rake? Sure!

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eumaas
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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by eumaas »

JennyB wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 4:49pm
eumaas wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 2:27pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 2:21pm
matedog wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 1:26pm
Anyone catch my Clashy-ism above?
I did but forgot to acknowledge it. And I did laugh, for what it's worth. Oh Clashy, my handsome KFC-boycotting prince, I hope dad bought you a new Beemer to celebrate the tax cut.
I am in the middle of rereading that trainwreck.
Me too. My god, what an asshole.
The first responsibility of any politically engaged individual is to persuade others. That's what irritated me the most about Clashy.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman

I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy

Dr. Medulla
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Re: TMMOT Thunderdome

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Regarding the thread splitting and renaming, well done, Inder. :lol:
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

JennyB
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Re: TMMOT Thunderdome

Post by JennyB »

Also, my two cents. I'm not a millionaire, but my grandparents were. They did not come from money - they had a camera store in Dallas and my grandmother was smart enough to invest in property that paid off very nicely. Because my dad died, I have inherited a good deal of money over the last five years. I would give anything to have my dad back and not have this money. It hasn't made us rich by any means, but we are comfortable. We own a nice house (it's not at all big though. We are a family of three and don't need a big house). We can travel once or twice a year and pay for VH, Jr's private school because of this money. However, I drive an 8 year old Prius. I buy my clothes from Old Navy, Target and resale shops. I also make a point of giving as much as possible to charity. I know a lot of times I donate more than people who are far more well off than we are. I volunteer a lot. I am probably going to inherit a great deal more when my mom dies (which, of course, I hope does not happen for a long time) and when the final piece of my grandmother's property sells. A lot of that money is going to go to VH, Jr's education so he isn't stuck with student loans. I don't know what my point is, but though people with money (and I am not a person "with money" in the scheme of things) can be nice, but if they don't make charity and volunteerism a priority, I have no use for them. And there is absolutely no reason people need 10,000 square foot houses, $100,000 cars, etc. Nobody needs that much stuff. I hope I am making sense here.
Got a Rake? Sure!

IMCT: Inane Middle-Class Twats - Dr. M

" *sigh* it's right when they throw the penis pump out the window." -Hoy

101Walterton
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Re: TMMOT Thunderdome

Post by 101Walterton »

JennyB wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 5:02pm
Also, my two cents. I'm not a millionaire, but my grandparents were. They did not come from money - they had a camera store in Dallas and my grandmother was smart enough to invest in property that paid off very nicely. Because my dad died, I have inherited a good deal of money over the last five years. I would give anything to have my dad back and not have this money. It hasn't made us rich by any means, but we are comfortable. We own a nice house (it's not at all big though. We are a family of three and don't need a big house). We can travel once or twice a year and pay for VH, Jr's private school because of this money. However, I drive an 8 year old Prius. I buy my clothes from Old Navy, Target and resale shops. I also make a point of giving as much as possible to charity. I know a lot of times I donate more than people who are far more well off than we are. I volunteer a lot. I am probably going to inherit a great deal more when my mom dies (which, of course, I hope does not happen for a long time) and when the final piece of my grandmother's property sells. A lot of that money is going to go to VH, Jr's education so he isn't stuck with student loans. I don't know what my point is, but though people with money (and I am not a person "with money" in the scheme of things) can be nice, but if they don't make charity and volunteerism a priority, I have no use for them. And there is absolutely no reason people need 10,000 square foot houses, $100,000 cars, etc. Nobody needs that much stuff. I hope I am making sense here.
Yep. I know plenty people like you and it isn’t a crime or something You have to justify.

Silent Majority
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Re: TMMOT Thunderdome

Post by Silent Majority »

JennyB wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 5:02pm
Also, my two cents. I'm not a millionaire, but my grandparents were. They did not come from money - they had a camera store in Dallas and my grandmother was smart enough to invest in property that paid off very nicely. Because my dad died, I have inherited a good deal of money over the last five years. I would give anything to have my dad back and not have this money. It hasn't made us rich by any means, but we are comfortable. We own a nice house (it's not at all big though. We are a family of three and don't need a big house). We can travel once or twice a year and pay for VH, Jr's private school because of this money. However, I drive an 8 year old Prius. I buy my clothes from Old Navy, Target and resale shops. I also make a point of giving as much as possible to charity. I know a lot of times I donate more than people who are far more well off than we are. I volunteer a lot. I am probably going to inherit a great deal more when my mom dies (which, of course, I hope does not happen for a long time) and when the final piece of my grandmother's property sells. A lot of that money is going to go to VH, Jr's education so he isn't stuck with student loans. I don't know what my point is, but though people with money (and I am not a person "with money" in the scheme of things) can be nice, but if they don't make charity and volunteerism a priority, I have no use for them. And there is absolutely no reason people need 10,000 square foot houses, $100,000 cars, etc. Nobody needs that much stuff. I hope I am making sense here.
Jen, I'm so happy that a person as cool as you doesn't have to worry unduly about finances.
a lifetime serving one machine
Is ten times worse than prison


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Dr. Medulla
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Re: TMMOT Thunderdome

Post by Dr. Medulla »

I wonder if this might help illustrate the opposition to the rich, not as individuals who may possess many noble qualities, but to the concept or status related to a dehumanizing system. Instead of talking about those who have become wealthy within capitalism, what if we're talking about wealthy slaveholders? Yes, Thomas Jefferson and James Madison were profound thinkers who contributed mightily to the intellectual foundations of both the United States and the modern Enlightenment. But we necessarily pause and are troubled (I hope!) by the fact that they achieved their opportunities and success on the blood and misery of others. This is not to equate slavery with capitalism (at least that's not on my plate right now :shifty: ) but that a morally abhorrent and dehumanizing system should complicate how we regard people who have notably benefited from it and how. It's about refusing to extricate the individual from the system of social relations. So, in critiquing the wealthy under capitalism, it's about not allowing that kind of separation from the system, but to acknowledge the complications.

note: In case there's any doubt, this is not some kind of mean-spirited rebuttal to Jen, only a contribution to the larger conversation.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Silent Majority
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Re: TMMOT Thunderdome

Post by Silent Majority »

101Walterton wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 4:33pm
I’m not a defender of the system either but I don’t buy in to the theory when applied to the real world.
I want an end domestic violence so that every man woman and child had a safe place. However I am not niaive enough to believe that the world could ever change so that that could happen.
Ursula Le Guin pointed out that the system looks inescapable, but there was also a time when the divine right of Kings looked to be the same.
You can become a millionaire from nothing and yes it will take a slice of luck along the way however every day you need a slice of luck not to die or be killed! We all strive to better our position in life and don’t we all want to make a better life for our children but according to this thread it is only ok to a certain point.
When is that? When is it ok to get a pay rise but at what point is it not ok?
The definition of working class is that you have to sell your labour for cash in order to survive. I'm not going to give a hard or fast figure that nobody can earn above, like at the end of the Roman Republic when the people's tribunes were agitating to make sure nobody could have more than 125 times the average figure (which would be about over three million quid, for the record). If you're living off interest, investments, or the hard work of others then I believe it's most likely that you have an unfair amount of money and have benefited from others having been pushed down into the dirt.
It is ok to get your kids out of the mouldy council house on the crack estate but when do you cross the line, semi detached, bedroom each, grass in the garden?
Is it ok for your kids to go to university if they leave with massive debt but not if you pay for their education?
I mean the goal, which is achievable if we distribute the treasures of the earth equally amongst ourselves, is that everybody has the same opportunities to lead a good, healthy life.

late edit: This aspirational stuff is pretty Thatcherite. It's how her government really kicked off neoliberalism - that vicious, rabid version of capitalism where the state props up corporations and slashes benefits for the needy.
a lifetime serving one machine
Is ten times worse than prison


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Silent Majority
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Re: TMMOT Thunderdome

Post by Silent Majority »

I want to put these points from earlier in the thread to people who disagree with my perspective again to let me know what they think about them

1) There's no reason for a rich person to have a better life than anyone else.

2) Wealth is created by the poor
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101Walterton
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Re: TMMOT Thunderdome

Post by 101Walterton »

"Ursula Le Guin pointed out that the system looks inescapable, but there was also a time when the divine right of Kings looked to be the same".

Not in Berkshire, however, surely the divine right of Kings still applies to systems all over the World albeit under different disguises.

Silent Majority
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Re: TMMOT Thunderdome

Post by Silent Majority »

101Walterton wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 6:02pm
"Ursula Le Guin pointed out that the system looks inescapable, but there was also a time when the divine right of Kings looked to be the same".

Not in Berkshire, however, surely the divine right of Kings still applies to systems all over the World albeit under different disguises.
Even I, a social anarchist, can admit that we've made some pretty decent strides in democracy since the days of Henry VIII.
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Is ten times worse than prison


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101Walterton
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Re: TMMOT Thunderdome

Post by 101Walterton »

Silent Majority wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 6:06pm
101Walterton wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 6:02pm
"Ursula Le Guin pointed out that the system looks inescapable, but there was also a time when the divine right of Kings looked to be the same".

Not in Berkshire, however, surely the divine right of Kings still applies to systems all over the World albeit under different disguises.
Even I, a social anarchist, can admit that we've made some pretty decent strides in democracy since the days of Henry VIII.
In SW1 maybe but most of the World doesn't know or care where that is.

eumaas
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Re: TMMOT Thunderdome

Post by eumaas »

Silent Majority wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 6:06pm
101Walterton wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 6:02pm
"Ursula Le Guin pointed out that the system looks inescapable, but there was also a time when the divine right of Kings looked to be the same".

Not in Berkshire, however, surely the divine right of Kings still applies to systems all over the World albeit under different disguises.
Even I, a social anarchist, can admit that we've made some pretty decent strides in democracy since the days of Henry VIII.
Oh darn, I am three beetroots short in my tax to his lordship.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman

I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy

Silent Majority
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Re: TMMOT Thunderdome

Post by Silent Majority »

101Walterton wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 6:10pm
Silent Majority wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 6:06pm
101Walterton wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 6:02pm
"Ursula Le Guin pointed out that the system looks inescapable, but there was also a time when the divine right of Kings looked to be the same".

Not in Berkshire, however, surely the divine right of Kings still applies to systems all over the World albeit under different disguises.
Even I, a social anarchist, can admit that we've made some pretty decent strides in democracy since the days of Henry VIII.
In SW1 maybe but most of the World doesn't know or care where that is.
About half the world is under the same kind of capitalist democracy as the UK and America. I think only about a quarter are authoritarian in the accepted, mainstream sense. Even as something that needs to be changed, and quickly, we got to admit that things are better than they were worldwide in the middle ages. For you to argue that most of the world is still run by heriditary monarchies is a strange position to take.
a lifetime serving one machine
Is ten times worse than prison


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101Walterton
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Re: TMMOT Thunderdome

Post by 101Walterton »

Silent Majority wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 6:17pm
101Walterton wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 6:10pm
Silent Majority wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 6:06pm
101Walterton wrote:
11 Apr 2018, 6:02pm
"Ursula Le Guin pointed out that the system looks inescapable, but there was also a time when the divine right of Kings looked to be the same".

Not in Berkshire, however, surely the divine right of Kings still applies to systems all over the World albeit under different disguises.
Even I, a social anarchist, can admit that we've made some pretty decent strides in democracy since the days of Henry VIII.
In SW1 maybe but most of the World doesn't know or care where that is.
About half the world is under the same kind of capitalist democracy as the UK and America. I think only about a quarter are authoritarian in the accepted, mainstream sense. Even as something that needs to be changed, and quickly, we got to admit that things are better than they were worldwide in the middle ages. For you to argue that most of the world is still run by heriditary monarchies is a strange position to take.
Just one question:

1) There's no reason for a rich person to have a better life than anyone else.

Do you believe that people are accountable for their own actions?

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