The thread of musical shame...

[Dr. Medulla]

It's interesting how some artists are chosen for rehabilitation and some are not. Why Toto? Is it simply because Weezer covered Africa and now it is kind of hip to say you like Toto? Last time I checked - Toto was still the domain of 50-somethings with mustaches who listened to the local classic rock station.

This is tangential but does deal with the idea of what's considered legit and not, but last Friday my class talked about hip hop. One of the articles was about the tricky path white rappers follow to gain credibility. Vanilla Ice is, of course, a key figure in that. One student asked whether VI was as big a joke at the time as he's regarded now. I assured him, no, it was legit big, a major crossover into the pop market. Outside of Weird Al, you don't sell millions of copies of a record as some kind of elaborate gag. The idea that VI was taken as a major star at the time seemed so unbelievable to the student.

Surely, a large group of people must have seen him as quite corny though? Even I, at that age, preferred Hammer infinitely more than Mr. Van Winkle.

The gobs of people who bought the record? No way. He was the great white hope, bridging rap and pop, making pop cooler and rescuing rap from its racial confines. People who were seriously into hip hop saw him as a clown, but they weren't buying the record.

I’m not convinced. The view I had and those around me was that was a bit of a novelty track and so was he. Don’t recall it being taken seriously. In fact it is taken more seriously now by my kid’s generation who listen to some version of it ( I think it is a remix?) without having any idea of its origins or who sings it.

What I mean is, people bought it because they liked it or were caught up in the way some people are with whatever seems popular. They didn't buy it ironically, to drop $10 or whatever on something they thought was a farce. He didn't become the punchline he is until he was exposed as having faked his bio, and that extended to mocking the song itself. We're rarely as wise at the time something is popular as we are with hindsight.

[101Walterton]

This is tangential but does deal with the idea of what's considered legit and not, but last Friday my class talked about hip hop. One of the articles was about the tricky path white rappers follow to gain credibility. Vanilla Ice is, of course, a key figure in that. One student asked whether VI was as big a joke at the time as he's regarded now. I assured him, no, it was legit big, a major crossover into the pop market. Outside of Weird Al, you don't sell millions of copies of a record as some kind of elaborate gag. The idea that VI was taken as a major star at the time seemed so unbelievable to the student.

Surely, a large group of people must have seen him as quite corny though? Even I, at that age, preferred Hammer infinitely more than Mr. Van Winkle.

The gobs of people who bought the record? No way. He was the great white hope, bridging rap and pop, making pop cooler and rescuing rap from its racial confines. People who were seriously into hip hop saw him as a clown, but they weren't buying the record.

I’m not convinced. The view I had and those around me was that was a bit of a novelty track and so was he. Don’t recall it being taken seriously. In fact it is taken more seriously now by my kid’s generation who listen to some version of it ( I think it is a remix?) without having any idea of its origins or who sings it.

What I mean is, people bought it because they liked it or were caught up in the way some people are with whatever seems popular. They didn't buy it ironically, to drop $10 or whatever on something they thought was a farce. He didn't become the punchline he is until he was exposed as having faked his bio, and that extended to mocking the song itself. We're rarely as wise at the time something is popular as we are with hindsight.

I would go as far as to say people bought it because it was a catchy pop tune (thanks to Queen) but not that he was any sort of great white hope or bringing Hip Hop to the masses. I doubt anyone who bought it in UK had any interest at all in Hip Hop.

[Dr. Medulla]

I would go as far as to say people bought it because it was a catchy pop tune (thanks to Queen) but not that he was any sort of great white hope or bringing Hip Hop to the masses. I doubt anyone who bought it in UK had any interest at all in Hip Hop.

I assure you, to the record industry he was. To the industry, he was Elvis—the white guy with the black backstory who could bring black music to white audiences and make everyone rich(er).

[WestwayKid]

Surely, a large group of people must have seen him as quite corny though? Even I, at that age, preferred Hammer infinitely more than Mr. Van Winkle.

The gobs of people who bought the record? No way. He was the great white hope, bridging rap and pop, making pop cooler and rescuing rap from its racial confines. People who were seriously into hip hop saw him as a clown, but they weren't buying the record.

I’m not convinced. The view I had and those around me was that was a bit of a novelty track and so was he. Don’t recall it being taken seriously. In fact it is taken more seriously now by my kid’s generation who listen to some version of it ( I think it is a remix?) without having any idea of its origins or who sings it.

What I mean is, people bought it because they liked it or were caught up in the way some people are with whatever seems popular. They didn't buy it ironically, to drop $10 or whatever on something they thought was a farce. He didn't become the punchline he is until he was exposed as having faked his bio, and that extended to mocking the song itself. We're rarely as wise at the time something is popular as we are with hindsight.

I would go as far as to say people bought it because it was a catchy pop tune (thanks to Queen) but not that he was any sort of great white hope or bringing Hip Hop to the masses. I doubt anyone who bought it in UK had any interest at all in Hip Hop.

I can only speak for myself...but I was a 13-year-old kid living in suburban Milwaukee when this song came out. I liked it because it was a catchy pop tune that also had (in my mind) an urban edge to it. My experience with hip hop was limited - I had heard all of the popular stuff (NWA, Public Enemy, and so on). I think I thought Vanilla Ice was both a legit hip hop artist and that the song was catchy. It was perfectly sugar coated for consumption by mainstream America - we in the 'burbs could get behind what we felt was a true "urban" hip hop song. I also remember it being such a huge cultural thing - you had to have it...so not only was it a catchy song...it was a must have socially.

[WestwayKid]

I would go as far as to say people bought it because it was a catchy pop tune (thanks to Queen) but not that he was any sort of great white hope or bringing Hip Hop to the masses. I doubt anyone who bought it in UK had any interest at all in Hip Hop.

I assure you, to the record industry he was. To the industry, he was Elvis—the white guy with the black backstory who could bring black music to white audiences and make everyone rich(er).

I agree with this. He was definitely marketed that way.

[101Walterton]

I would go as far as to say people bought it because it was a catchy pop tune (thanks to Queen) but not that he was any sort of great white hope or bringing Hip Hop to the masses. I doubt anyone who bought it in UK had any interest at all in Hip Hop.

I assure you, to the record industry he was. To the industry, he was Elvis—the white guy with the black backstory who could bring black music to white audiences and make everyone rich(er).

I agree with this. He was definitely marketed that way.

I don’t doubt to the the US record industry he was. But not to the general masses ( certainly not in UK - can’t speak for US.
Beastie Boys had already got the interest of anyone who wanted Hip Hop, Vanilla Ice was just a fun pop song to most.

[Dr. Medulla]

I would go as far as to say people bought it because it was a catchy pop tune (thanks to Queen) but not that he was any sort of great white hope or bringing Hip Hop to the masses. I doubt anyone who bought it in UK had any interest at all in Hip Hop.

I assure you, to the record industry he was. To the industry, he was Elvis—the white guy with the black backstory who could bring black music to white audiences and make everyone rich(er).

I agree with this. He was definitely marketed that way.

And the combination of his initial success and then exposure has since made him that acid test for any white rapper. It's pretty impressive that almost thirty years later, he still holds significance, albeit not how he wanted.

[Wolter]

I would go as far as to say people bought it because it was a catchy pop tune (thanks to Queen) but not that he was any sort of great white hope or bringing Hip Hop to the masses. I doubt anyone who bought it in UK had any interest at all in Hip Hop.

I assure you, to the record industry he was. To the industry, he was Elvis—the white guy with the black backstory who could bring black music to white audiences and make everyone rich(er).

I agree with this. He was definitely marketed that way.

And the combination of his initial success and then exposure has since made him that acid test for any white rapper. It's pretty impressive that almost thirty years later, he still holds significance, albeit not how he wanted.

It’s weird. I was only sort of into hip hop/rap, but I had friends who were, so I knew he had no street cred among the fans, but people who had no stake ate him up. Yeah, he was definitely marketed as the Elvis of hip-hop, in every sense of the idea.

You know who I remember having street cred as white rappers but no crossover appeal? 3rd Bass, who did a diss track on Ice called “Pop Goes the Weasel.”

[Flex]

Vanilla Ice is currently signed to Insane Clown Posse's label. End of statement.

[Dr. Medulla]

Vanilla Ice is currently signed to Insane Clown Posse's label. End of statement.

Full-on legit!

[Dr. Medulla]

I'm devastated that I can't find online the SNL clip of Kevin Bacon as Vanilla Ice being interrogated by Chris Rock's retro-black nationalist Nat X. The transcript is all I can find, but Bacon's lazy and numbing "word to your mother"s stands out as gutting VI as a phony.
https://snltranscripts.jt.org/90/90lnatx.phtml

[Flex]

Here's a latter day Vanilla Ice record:

[Dr. Medulla]

I will defer to Kory's expertise as to why that is a highly effective design.

[JennyB]

I would go as far as to say people bought it because it was a catchy pop tune (thanks to Queen) but not that he was any sort of great white hope or bringing Hip Hop to the masses. I doubt anyone who bought it in UK had any interest at all in Hip Hop.

I assure you, to the record industry he was. To the industry, he was Elvis—the white guy with the black backstory who could bring black music to white audiences and make everyone rich(er).

I agree with this. He was definitely marketed that way.

And the combination of his initial success and then exposure has since made him that acid test for any white rapper. It's pretty impressive that almost thirty years later, he still holds significance, albeit not how he wanted.

It’s weird. I was only sort of into hip hop/rap, but I had friends who were, so I knew he had no street cred among the fans, but people who had no stake ate him up. Yeah, he was definitely marketed as the Elvis of hip-hop, in every sense of the idea.

You know who I remember having street cred as white rappers but no crossover appeal? 3rd Bass, who did a diss track on Ice called “Pop Goes the Weasel.”

And in the video, Ice was played by none other than Henry Rollins!

IIB was huge with the fratboy crowd at my school. But most of us knew he was awful.

[Dr. Medulla]

IIB was huge with the fratboy crowd at my school. But most of us knew he was awful.

Funny, but back in high school days, it was the jocks who I most associated with rap—or at least the stuff that made the charts. The Beasties' first album, especially "Fight for the Right" and Run-DMC/Aerosmith's "Walk This Way" were both huge with the football assholes (in the former case, clearly missing the satire). To this day, I still get a bit of a twinge of hostility towards that stuff because of that association.