The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

General music discussion.
101Walterton
User avatar
The Best
Posts: 21973
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 5:36pm
Location: Volcanic Rock In The Pacific

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by 101Walterton »

Heston wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 4:16pm
101Walterton wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:57pm
Silent Majority wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:51pm
I believe Townshend mistook Paul Cook for Lydon and expected a better conversation.
I’d rather chat to Cooky
Totally. Can't stand Lydon as a person for a good few years now.
I've been listening to Jones' Jukebox on Youtube. The guy talks so much sense about the Pistols, what went on and the characters involved. His observations on John are very astute. For someone as screwed up as he is / was he seems to have sorted his shit out really well and certainly doesn't take himself seriously (unlike some). He is a good listen.

Heston
User avatar
God of Thunder...and Rock 'n Roll
Posts: 38356
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 4:07pm
Location: North of Watford Junction

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by Heston »

101Walterton wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 5:21pm
Heston wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 4:16pm
101Walterton wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:57pm
Silent Majority wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:51pm
I believe Townshend mistook Paul Cook for Lydon and expected a better conversation.
I’d rather chat to Cooky
Totally. Can't stand Lydon as a person for a good few years now.
I've been listening to Jones' Jukebox on Youtube. The guy talks so much sense about the Pistols, what went on and the characters involved. His observations on John are very astute. For someone as screwed up as he is / was he seems to have sorted his shit out really well and certainly doesn't take himself seriously (unlike some). He is a good listen.
He doesn't like Lydon either according to the clip I saw the other week.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

101Walterton
User avatar
The Best
Posts: 21973
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 5:36pm
Location: Volcanic Rock In The Pacific

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by 101Walterton »

Heston wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 5:41pm
101Walterton wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 5:21pm
Heston wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 4:16pm
101Walterton wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:57pm
Silent Majority wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:51pm
I believe Townshend mistook Paul Cook for Lydon and expected a better conversation.
I’d rather chat to Cooky
Totally. Can't stand Lydon as a person for a good few years now.
I've been listening to Jones' Jukebox on Youtube. The guy talks so much sense about the Pistols, what went on and the characters involved. His observations on John are very astute. For someone as screwed up as he is / was he seems to have sorted his shit out really well and certainly doesn't take himself seriously (unlike some). He is a good listen.
He doesn't like Lydon either according to the clip I saw the other week.
I was watching an interview he did for another US radio station where Lydon was discussed. He basically said he doesn't like being in Lydon's company (which I guess is like saying he doesn't like him). He refuses to say why but he does say that Lydon can be so obnoxious because he is terrified of anyone making fun of him or laughing at him (due to anxiety) so as as soon as he thinks that is happening he goes on the aggressive which usually results in an insult and a walk out by Lydon. He astutely points out that Lydon needs to drop his false front, stop being 1970's Johnny Rotten and let it all go and be himself. In other words grow up!!

101Walterton
User avatar
The Best
Posts: 21973
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 5:36pm
Location: Volcanic Rock In The Pacific

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by 101Walterton »

An obscure obversation this week and one for discussion.
Was in a Café waiting for my coffee and noted a huge photo on the wall of Bowie and Ronson. I have seen the photo before it is of them sitting on a train eating what looks like a roast dinner.
But as I studied it I couldn’t help but notice that both Bowie and Ronson hold their knife in what I would call an odd way as it is the same way you would hold a pen!!
Is it just me or is that weird?

Marky Dread
User avatar
Messiah of the Milk Bar
Posts: 58887
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 11:26am

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by Marky Dread »

101Walterton wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 4:09am
An obscure obversation this week and one for discussion.
Was in a Café waiting for my coffee and noted a huge photo on the wall of Bowie and Ronson. I have seen the photo before it is of them sitting on a train eating what looks like a roast dinner.
But as I studied it I couldn’t help but notice that both Bowie and Ronson hold their knife in what I would call an odd way as it is the same way you would hold a pen!!
Is it just me or is that weird?
It's a pretty common thing where people hold their finger over the knife instead of having the knife resting through the palm towards the thumb. As for any correct etiquette well fuck that it's just bullshit. Good manners on the other hand...
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Marky Dread
User avatar
Messiah of the Milk Bar
Posts: 58887
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 11:26am

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by Marky Dread »

101Walterton wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 6:04pm
Heston wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 5:41pm
101Walterton wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 5:21pm
Heston wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 4:16pm
101Walterton wrote:
08 Aug 2018, 3:57pm


I’d rather chat to Cooky
Totally. Can't stand Lydon as a person for a good few years now.
I've been listening to Jones' Jukebox on Youtube. The guy talks so much sense about the Pistols, what went on and the characters involved. His observations on John are very astute. For someone as screwed up as he is / was he seems to have sorted his shit out really well and certainly doesn't take himself seriously (unlike some). He is a good listen.
He doesn't like Lydon either according to the clip I saw the other week.
I was watching an interview he did for another US radio station where Lydon was discussed. He basically said he doesn't like being in Lydon's company (which I guess is like saying he doesn't like him). He refuses to say why but he does say that Lydon can be so obnoxious because he is terrified of anyone making fun of him or laughing at him (due to anxiety) so as as soon as he thinks that is happening he goes on the aggressive which usually results in an insult and a walk out by Lydon. He astutely points out that Lydon needs to drop his false front, stop being 1970's Johnny Rotten and let it all go and be himself. In other words grow up!!
Yep Steve, Paul & Glen all think the same. But at the end of the day they just shrug their shoulders and say "It's just John". John does use his Rotten persona to put up his guard and it's like a defence mechanism. I wouldn't call it a false front as such as that is who he is. But I wouldn't want to be around it 24/7.

Steve, Paul & Glen don't have this to live up to. I think it's the same for a lot of people from the punk era who changed their names. Even Joe had to live up to his Strummer punk tag at times. Of course nowhere near as extreme as Lydon but they all live up to their punk image at times from Captain Sensible being extrovert to whoever.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 115993
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 5:40am
I think it's the same for a lot of people from the punk era who changed their names. Even Joe had to live up to his Strummer punk tag at times. Of course nowhere near as extreme as Lydon but they all live up to their punk image at times from Captain Sensible being extrovert to whoever.
Ironically, Lydon once correctly observed and lamented that Sid failed to understand that Sid Vicious was just a persona, that he didn't have to be Sid Vicious all the time, and not being able to make that distinction led, in no small part, to his death. But I think you're absolutely correct about the pressures of these punk personas with their invented names—it's self-creation and -liberation but it can be a trap, too.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

101Walterton
User avatar
The Best
Posts: 21973
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 5:36pm
Location: Volcanic Rock In The Pacific

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by 101Walterton »

Marky Dread wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 5:40am
101Walterton wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 6:04pm
Heston wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 5:41pm
101Walterton wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 5:21pm
Heston wrote:
09 Aug 2018, 4:16pm


Totally. Can't stand Lydon as a person for a good few years now.
I've been listening to Jones' Jukebox on Youtube. The guy talks so much sense about the Pistols, what went on and the characters involved. His observations on John are very astute. For someone as screwed up as he is / was he seems to have sorted his shit out really well and certainly doesn't take himself seriously (unlike some). He is a good listen.
He doesn't like Lydon either according to the clip I saw the other week.
I was watching an interview he did for another US radio station where Lydon was discussed. He basically said he doesn't like being in Lydon's company (which I guess is like saying he doesn't like him). He refuses to say why but he does say that Lydon can be so obnoxious because he is terrified of anyone making fun of him or laughing at him (due to anxiety) so as as soon as he thinks that is happening he goes on the aggressive which usually results in an insult and a walk out by Lydon. He astutely points out that Lydon needs to drop his false front, stop being 1970's Johnny Rotten and let it all go and be himself. In other words grow up!!
Yep Steve, Paul & Glen all think the same. But at the end of the day they just shrug their shoulders and say "It's just John". John does use his Rotten persona to put up his guard and it's like a defence mechanism. I wouldn't call it a false front as such as that is who he is. But I wouldn't want to be around it 24/7.

Steve, Paul & Glen don't have this to live up to. I think it's the same for a lot of people from the punk era who changed their names. Even Joe had to live up to his Strummer punk tag at times. Of course nowhere near as extreme as Lydon but they all live up to their punk image at times from Captain Sensible being extrovert to whoever.

I am not so sure that is who he is he seems to able to switch it on and off. I heard Opie (who is obviously not a fan and had a couple of failed interviews with Lydon) tell a story about friend of his met Lydon but had no idea who he was. They spent a couple of hours socialising and the guy reckoned Lydon (who obviously knew the bloke had no idea who he was) couldn’t have been more friendly.

Marky Dread
User avatar
Messiah of the Milk Bar
Posts: 58887
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 11:26am

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 5:53am
Marky Dread wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 5:40am
I think it's the same for a lot of people from the punk era who changed their names. Even Joe had to live up to his Strummer punk tag at times. Of course nowhere near as extreme as Lydon but they all live up to their punk image at times from Captain Sensible being extrovert to whoever.
Ironically, Lydon once correctly observed and lamented that Sid failed to understand that Sid Vicious was just a persona, that he didn't have to be Sid Vicious all the time, and not being able to make that distinction led, in no small part, to his death. But I think you're absolutely correct about the pressures of these punk personas with their invented names—it's self-creation and -liberation but it can be a trap, too.
Some more thoughts. Rotten was achieved from Steve seeing John's rotting teeth and Sid Vicious achieved by Lydon's pet hamster (which was named after Syd Barret) and the Vicious part because Sid was anything but vicious. The problem is not the name but the public and medias perception of those names. Glen said he liked John originally but John became a real pain in the backside once all the media attention turned to him. When John got Sid in the Pistols to have as he claimed an ally I think that was just as much to have less attention to him from the media which had at that point become a backlash with personal physical attacks etc. I felt sad for Sid in this case because he wasn't a toughie at all and he was chucked in the deep end. All Sid had to defend himself with was his ability to laugh at everything but that soon gave way to paranoia with his drug dependency. In reality Sid was just a kid who couldn't cope and the drugs became his hiding place.

It was common place to have nicknames in the 70's hardly any of my mates are known by their real names. We used to go to al-niters in London and we would all be speeding out of our heads. Speed is great when you are on it but the fucking comedown the next day would be horrible and your personality would change. I can't imagine what that must've been like for those like Lydon in the public eye being watched by just about every agency going. The paranoia must've been maddening.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 115993
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 7:09am
The problem is not the name but the public and medias perception of those names. Glen said he liked John originally but John became a real pain in the backside once all the media attention turned to him. When John got Sid in the Pistols to have as he claimed an ally I think that was just as much to have less attention to him from the media which had at that point become a backlash with personal physical attacks etc. I felt sad for Sid in this case because he wasn't a toughie at all and he was chucked in the deep end. All Sid had to defend himself with was his ability to laugh at everything but that soon gave way to paranoia with his drug dependency. In reality Sid was just a kid who couldn't cope and the drugs became his hiding place.
Well, sort of. Those names were intended to have some kind of effect on the public, whether to shock more genteel sensibilities or to appeal to youthful rebellion. It's a game but the problem is these kids either didn't realize how serious it would get and/or thought they could control the game. As every celebrity who reaches that saturation level learns, at a certain point nobody is in control and you just have to wait it out.
Speed is great when you are on it but the fucking comedown the next day would be horrible and your personality would change. I can't imagine what that must've been like for those like Lydon in the public eye being watched by just about every agency going. The paranoia must've been maddening.
Definitely, the punk drug of choice affected how they dealt with notoriety, feeding the monster of the punk reputation.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Marky Dread
User avatar
Messiah of the Milk Bar
Posts: 58887
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 11:26am

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 8:49am
Marky Dread wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 7:09am
The problem is not the name but the public and medias perception of those names. Glen said he liked John originally but John became a real pain in the backside once all the media attention turned to him. When John got Sid in the Pistols to have as he claimed an ally I think that was just as much to have less attention to him from the media which had at that point become a backlash with personal physical attacks etc. I felt sad for Sid in this case because he wasn't a toughie at all and he was chucked in the deep end. All Sid had to defend himself with was his ability to laugh at everything but that soon gave way to paranoia with his drug dependency. In reality Sid was just a kid who couldn't cope and the drugs became his hiding place.
Well, sort of. Those names were intended to have some kind of effect on the public, whether to shock more genteel sensibilities or to appeal to youthful rebellion. It's a game but the problem is these kids either didn't realize how serious it would get and/or thought they could control the game. As every celebrity who reaches that saturation level learns, at a certain point nobody is in control and you just have to wait it out.
Speed is great when you are on it but the fucking comedown the next day would be horrible and your personality would change. I can't imagine what that must've been like for those like Lydon in the public eye being watched by just about every agency going. The paranoia must've been maddening.
Definitely, the punk drug of choice affected how they dealt with notoriety, feeding the monster of the punk reputation.
"Those names were intended to have some kind of effect on the public"

No they were not and that's the point. The names were invented by mates as banter and not to offend anyone except as a term of endearment or piss-take. McLaren abused the names later as the band gained notoriety as it appealed to his dickensian and machiavellian mischief and of course this played into the hands of Fleet Street who had a field day. Normally it's the British press who invent these names but with punk they had a free gift.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 115993
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 9:36am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 8:49am
Marky Dread wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 7:09am
The problem is not the name but the public and medias perception of those names. Glen said he liked John originally but John became a real pain in the backside once all the media attention turned to him. When John got Sid in the Pistols to have as he claimed an ally I think that was just as much to have less attention to him from the media which had at that point become a backlash with personal physical attacks etc. I felt sad for Sid in this case because he wasn't a toughie at all and he was chucked in the deep end. All Sid had to defend himself with was his ability to laugh at everything but that soon gave way to paranoia with his drug dependency. In reality Sid was just a kid who couldn't cope and the drugs became his hiding place.
Well, sort of. Those names were intended to have some kind of effect on the public, whether to shock more genteel sensibilities or to appeal to youthful rebellion. It's a game but the problem is these kids either didn't realize how serious it would get and/or thought they could control the game. As every celebrity who reaches that saturation level learns, at a certain point nobody is in control and you just have to wait it out.
Speed is great when you are on it but the fucking comedown the next day would be horrible and your personality would change. I can't imagine what that must've been like for those like Lydon in the public eye being watched by just about every agency going. The paranoia must've been maddening.
Definitely, the punk drug of choice affected how they dealt with notoriety, feeding the monster of the punk reputation.
"Those names were intended to have some kind of effect on the public"

No they were not and that's the point. The names were invented by mates as banter and not to offend anyone except as a term of endearment or piss-take. McLaren abused the names later as the band gained notoriety as it appealed to his dickensian and machiavellian mischief and of course this played into the hands of Fleet Street who had a field day. Normally it's the British press who invent these names but with punk they had a free gift.
If that's the case, does that mean the fashion trends—e.g., safety pins thru the cheek, Nazi and Soviet symbolism, bondage gear—also had nothing to do with shocking the public?
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Marky Dread
User avatar
Messiah of the Milk Bar
Posts: 58887
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 11:26am

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 10:24am
Marky Dread wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 9:36am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 8:49am
Marky Dread wrote:
11 Aug 2018, 7:09am
The problem is not the name but the public and medias perception of those names. Glen said he liked John originally but John became a real pain in the backside once all the media attention turned to him. When John got Sid in the Pistols to have as he claimed an ally I think that was just as much to have less attention to him from the media which had at that point become a backlash with personal physical attacks etc. I felt sad for Sid in this case because he wasn't a toughie at all and he was chucked in the deep end. All Sid had to defend himself with was his ability to laugh at everything but that soon gave way to paranoia with his drug dependency. In reality Sid was just a kid who couldn't cope and the drugs became his hiding place.
Well, sort of. Those names were intended to have some kind of effect on the public, whether to shock more genteel sensibilities or to appeal to youthful rebellion. It's a game but the problem is these kids either didn't realize how serious it would get and/or thought they could control the game. As every celebrity who reaches that saturation level learns, at a certain point nobody is in control and you just have to wait it out.
Speed is great when you are on it but the fucking comedown the next day would be horrible and your personality would change. I can't imagine what that must've been like for those like Lydon in the public eye being watched by just about every agency going. The paranoia must've been maddening.
Definitely, the punk drug of choice affected how they dealt with notoriety, feeding the monster of the punk reputation.
"Those names were intended to have some kind of effect on the public"

No they were not and that's the point. The names were invented by mates as banter and not to offend anyone except as a term of endearment or piss-take. McLaren abused the names later as the band gained notoriety as it appealed to his dickensian and machiavellian mischief and of course this played into the hands of Fleet Street who had a field day. Normally it's the British press who invent these names but with punk they had a free gift.
If that's the case, does that mean the fashion trends—e.g., safety pins thru the cheek, Nazi and Soviet symbolism, bondage gear—also had nothing to do with shocking the public?
The individuals name changes and the clothes are not related in that way. The punk names were not originally designed that way, Sid Vicious/Johnny Rotten/Rat Scabies/Captain Sensible were not given to their owners as a shock tactic but down to the way they looked or acted or in the case of Rat an ailment he had.

I don't know who was responsible for the silly safety pin through the cheek. As for the Nazi symbolism etc that's all down to McLaren in the same way that he had catered for the previous generations Teddy Boys with drape jackets/crepe souls etc. He realised that the punk fans needed their own identity. Things like the bondage suit and the destroy T-shirt were indeed designed to turn heads. And some of those clothes (2 semi naked cowboys or the naked prepubescent) did land certain people in the mire. The clothes were always secondary to the groups/music. Most kids I knew at that time could not afford Malcolms silly prices and would venture up to London's Kings Road Sex/Seditionaries with the sole purpose of nicking a t-shirt. This is why the original punk fans made their own clothes or adapted something like a school blazer and the like. For a lot of those original punk fans it was over within 18 months as they hated the way punk was quickly diluted down.

In early '79 I had brief conversation with Malcom in Seditionaries and I did complain about his prices. His reply was "well my boy you don't have to buy them". He was right I didn't and I stole a GStQ A&M t-shirt, I felt like he was asking me to nick it.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 115993
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by Dr. Medulla »

I don't cleave public and private as neatly as you. Certainly, there was a significant component of in-joke and status going on with the punk crowd, but to divorce it so thoroughly from also shocking their elders or ascribe it to managerial or media manipulation is a little too clean to me. Among other things, youth has long been a time of life for rebelling against and shocking older generations, but seemingly punks are breaking from that pattern altogether? Nah, as with any question of behaviour, the more complex and contradictory explanation tends to be the more satisfying one.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Silent Majority
Singer-Songwriter Nancy
Posts: 18702
Joined: 10 Nov 2008, 8:28pm
Location: South Londoner in the Midlands.

Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

Post by Silent Majority »

:mrgreen: love that malcolm story, MD
a lifetime serving one machine
Is ten times worse than prison


www.pexlives.libsyn.com/

Post Reply