Star Trek

[Flex]

A funny bit that was just pointed out to me is that, so far, no one actually likes Picard's wine

[Dr. Medulla]

A funny bit that was just pointed out to me is that, so far, no one actually likes Picard's wine

I hadn't noticed it either, but it was mentioned in one recap I read of the last episode.

[Flex]

I hadn't noticed it either, but it was mentioned in one recap I read of the last episode.

I chuckled every time someone was like "uh, pass on the wine" but I hadn't really noticed that consistency. Very amusing touch. It would actually be in keeping with some idea of the character as more an appreciator of his family heritage and legacy than as someone who should be doing the actual legacy-ing. You belong in the captains chair, not on a vinyard, johnny!

[Dr. Medulla]

I hadn't noticed it either, but it was mentioned in one recap I read of the last episode.

I chuckled every time someone was like "uh, pass on the wine" but I hadn't really noticed that consistency. Very amusing touch. It would actually be in keeping with some idea of the character as more an appreciator of his family heritage and legacy than as someone who should be doing the actual legacy-ing. You belong in the captains chair, not on a vinyard, johnny!

I think you're right—it's not just a recurring gag at the hero's expense, but to reinforce that he isn't truly himself when he's bottling wine, but rather saving the galaxy.

You know, if Tom Hanks has achieved that status as everybody's dad, Patrick Stewart is a pretty decent second.

[Dr. Medulla]

Penultimate episode of Picard: On the one hand, I groaned at the long-awaited reveal (it was predictable, and not in a good way but rather a lazy way, for my money). On the other hand, the set-up for the finale is pure "getting the band together," and I do mean that in a good way.

I'll say no more to avoid spoiling shit.

[Dr. Medulla]

Again, no spoilers about the final episode other than to say that for a half-second I legit that we were going to hear "Ace of Spades." The Boss laughed at me for thinking that was even a possibility.

Anyway, watch and we can discuss.

[Flex]

Yeah sorry, I'm still 2 episodes behind. Should be caught up by next week!

[Flex]

Again, no spoilers about the final episode other than to say that for a half-second I legit that we were going to hear "Ace of Spades." The Boss laughed at me for thinking that was even a possibility.

Anyway, watch and we can discuss.

Haha, I can see where you got that. Would have been awesome. Anyways, I'm caught up. Not sure who else is watching and reading this thread (Maj?) but SPOILERS below if you aren't caught up.

Spoiler

Okay, so I caught up with episodes 9 and 10 over the weekend. A tale of two halves, I suppose. Episode 9 was pretty disappointing, the Borg reveal was quite predictable but also had me groaning. A trek villain that hasn't been good since First Contact, at least. Not much else to say about that episode that I can recall, star trek has graduated from doing sci Fi action laughably to doing it competently but mostly unremarkably. Obviously, bringing the enterprise d back was delightful, although like you Doc it was obviously coming since at least once they revealed georgi was in charge of a fleet museum.

Episode 10, which I just finished, was really quite good at everything and dealt with what has turned out to be the black hole of a plot as best it could. I will say: the writers and designers brought back a little spark to the Borg with the both the genuinely creepy cube interiors and, particularly, more monstrous queen design. I also thought the pivot from assimilation to annihilation was a logical endpoint to the borg-as-totatilarian-fascists strand of interpretation. But, still, not really a particularly interesting villain to contemplate too much (it feels like the Borg have been "resolved" at least half a dozen times - and as recently as in the last season of Picard! - so their whole usage here was completely perfunctory) and the locutus drama played out many story cycles ago.

Similarly, the writers struggle to give Jack weight as a character makes his plot involvement lack emotional depth or sincerity. By the end of the series I was bought into the relationship between father and son, but I never really got sold on the idea that he was so alienated and lonely that he'd welcome assimilation and assisting with the annihilation of the galaxy.

Those were my two complaints. Everything else really worked for me. The gang all being back together paid off handsomly in the last episode with everyone getting plenty of moments to shine. Worf's "swords are fun" line killed me (not to mention riker struggling to pick up his sword a moment earlier). The b-plot with Seven helped keep the stakes of what was happening clear and have Seven a chance to finish her character arc becoming a leader.

All the post-plot resolution stuff was lovely. I admit that I'm easily charmed by star trek in general, and after all this time these actors and characters particularly have all the latitude in the world to be corny, funny, heartfelt and generally get their victory lap. The (almost) closing scene at the bar was the perfect touch to bring it back to the finale of TNG, itself a near-perfect ending.

In the end, do I think Picard was a worthwhile series? Yes. Despite its ups and downs I think it genuinely added dimension to its title character and tried to think through and explore over its three seasons different key themes and ideas that TNG had investigated. I still think that in terms of grappling with its own legacy critically, season one remains the standout. Season two was kind of a mess, but season three was the rare beast that basically completely gave into nostalgia and fan service but actually pulled off something of merit. And throughout the seasons, I think they did take Picard on a journey that resulted in his character growing and changing. So, mission accomplished.

And onto the next horizon: obviously the finale also included essentially the pilot for the next trek show (being called star trek legacy it sounds like). While I think the jury is still out on Jack as a character, the three seasons of Picard really did right by Seven of Nine and I'm definitely on board to try out a show with her as captain. Nice to see Raffi stick around too. No idea what they're gonna do with it, but no doubt I'll at least be giving it a shot.

EDIT: added spoiler tag, did not realize we could do that now!

[Dr. Medulla]

Spoiler tag in case it's needed.

Spoiler

We're in agreement on pretty much everything you observe above. A few additional comments, tho, re. the final episode. The action half was shamelessly stolen from Return of the Jedi. Picard goes to save Jack in the presence of the evil Queen is Luke/Vader/Emperor, complete with the sacrifice and expression of love. (And like A New Hope, man, Picard sure is invested in a person he's known only a week, paternal revelation or not, just like Luke only knew Obi-Wan for, what, a day or two, yet losing him means more than losing Owen and Beru.) As the narrative spun out about the beacon being in the centre of the cube, I said to The Boss, maybe there's a shaft about the size of a womp rat that could give them a chance. Instead, even better, the Enterprise flies right into the Cube, just like in Jedi. In terms of storytelling, that was unimaginative, but they'd gone so deep into the well once again with the Borg, Locutus, etc etc, fine.

As someone not especially interested in fan service or that kind of crap, I thought they did a really fine job of reminding us why we loved these characters in the first place and put a far more satisfying period on it than Nemesis. "All Good Things" is so well regarded because it confirmed that we want a happy ending for these characters, which this conclusion confirmed. I was disappointed, tho, that we didn't get a cameo from Colm Meany given that he was a TNG OG. Not even a mention of O'Brien, as far as I can recall. No Wesley, either (tho he got his moment in the S2, appropriately the season everyone wants to forget), but him showing up would have been the easy solution to all the problems. If there is a new ST series with Jack and Seven, it'll be inevitable that the two half-brothers meet up.

The whole virus thing only affecting those under 25 was a plot contrivance to make sure our heroes were unaffected, but I couldn't help but think there was some kind of pandemic commentary involved. What, exactly, I don't know for sure. Or maybe it was a generational commentary about young people being too plugged into the mediasphere? Maybe I'm just looking for something in a plot device that is just a plot device.

Would definitely give a chance to a new series based on the teaser. I never found Seven that interesting a character on Voyager (as a friend called her, 36 of D), but she's been redeemed immensely on Picard. The only hesitancy I have is that, like with Voyager, the number of tired old Borg plots would resurface. The Borg are a great villain in concept, yet I've never especially liked the execution.

[Flex]

Will keep spoiler tag on, too hard on phone to quote/respond but just a couple of sparked additional thoughts:

Spoiler

-on the ROTJ parallels, that makes a lot of sense. Not a movie that's at top of mind enough for me to have thought of it right away (except for the enterprise D flying into the cube, even I could sense the star wars "inspiration" there). I don't know if it's good or bad per se, but I think it's telling that the actual nuts and bolts plot is the biggest weakness of the season. Part of the structural oddness of the season is that you basically have a tight (well by star trek standards anyways) 6 or whatever part mystery/thriller and then the changeling rebels get disposed of and you just get stuck with the Borg. There's no real thematic relationship with the Borg to the rest of the season. It was like "okay, time to go into Hero's Quest mod with the Big Bads." Seems like there was plenty of room to go into another direction, but I guess once you're committed to doing the nostalgia tour AND seemingly committed to essentially undoing Picard season two, theres really nothing else for it but the Borg.

-I think you've mentioned before not liking First Contact for its introduction of the Queen, which I don't think I agreed with at the time but which I think I've come to agree with over time. The Borg are better served by a "less is more" approach anyways, but the core concept of total sublimation of the individual is such a good one and adding, well, personalities and individuality back into the collective really undercuts the core concept of what makes them horrifying. I don't think there's been a single good Borg appearance post-first contact. I appreciated Picard season two because it seemed like they actually tried to "solve" the Borg and put them to rest, clumsy as the execution was. Ah well.

-i couldn't even remember if they attempted to explain the over 25 are immune to the Borg thing. I actually think you could have something around a collective covid-like rauma as young, healthy people inadvertently lead to the deaths of a lot of older and more vulnerable folks. But, as far as I can tell, they just pretty much gloss over the fact that a huge amount of starfleet officers probably murdered thousands of millions of fellow crewmen and (I think?) can all remember doing it. Maybe that'll be an issue in Legacy, dunno.

-justice4obrien! Only the tiniest Tasha Yar callback too. She's a character I actually am a little surprised didn't get some kind of rehabilitation at any point in the three seasons of Picard. I guess you can't touch on every strand of the show and every character, but some odd choices on what fan service to include and what to skip (I mean, probably it mostly had to do with who what available/willing and at what price).

-one final lament, which is I didn't like q coming back in the last scene. Regardless of what I means for Jack's character in legacy, Q's resolution in season two was actually one of things I liked a lot that story. Even if the execution was as clumsy as everything else from that season, it at least finally acknowledged the core truth of the character which is that he only works in his relationship to, specifically, captain Picard. Every other appearance of him outside of TNG has been pretty dire. I get that in franchise television these days no character or plot element can ever be truly put to rest, but for a show that actually has a surprisingly deft handle on its characters and their strengths, this hit a bum note.

Again, really enjoyed the show and the finale, so these are all minor nits. But it's interesting where star trek still has its blind spots in storytelling.

[Dr. Medulla]

Shit, just saw this. Sorry about the lack of reply.

Will keep spoiler tag on, too hard on phone to quote/respond but just a couple of sparked additional thoughts:

Spoiler

-one final lament, which is I didn't like q coming back in the last scene. Regardless of what I means for Jack's character in legacy, Q's resolution in season two was actually one of things I liked a lot that story. Even if the execution was as clumsy as everything else from that season, it at least finally acknowledged the core truth of the character which is that he only works in his relationship to, specifically, captain Picard. Every other appearance of him outside of TNG has been pretty dire. I get that in franchise television these days no character or plot element can ever be truly put to rest, but for a show that actually has a surprisingly deft handle on its characters and their strengths, this hit a bum note.

I can't help but think that part of S3 was a deliberate repudiation of S2. S2's conclusion suggested a different resolution to the whole Borg crapola, but nope. And having Q alive is an extension of that (I mean, was Q needed for that teaser?). Likewise, Picard's Romulan partner, who was nowhere to be found. As much as I hated S2, the kind of immediate pissing on what was done seemed kind of tacky, even if this season, while bloaty in length, was quite satisfying.

Again, really enjoyed the show and the finale, so these are all minor nits. But it's interesting where star trek still has its blind spots in storytelling.

It was a season that, appropriately, exhibited the worst parts of Star Trek but also the best (outside of pretty much any DS9 episode; the disrespect shown to that series only confirms its superiority to me). In the end, I liked seeing these characters again, which is what we should want, no? Picard as a whole, but esp. S3, remedied the existence of Nemesis as the final word on TNG, so on that alone it's a grand success.

And perhaps this isn't the complete and total final word: https://www.digitalspy.com/tv/ustv/a436 ... le-return/

[laxman]

I'm working my way through the first series, so thanks for the spoiler alerts.

[Dr. Medulla]

I'm working my way through the first series, so thanks for the spoiler alerts.

Unless you feel a need to be a completist, skip the second season. By the middle, The Boss and I were hate-watching it.

[laxman]

I'm working my way through the first series, so thanks for the spoiler alerts.

Unless you feel a need to be a completist, skip the second season. By the middle, The Boss and I were hate-watching it.

Thanks, I will see how I go.

[tepista]