Nope. They didn't like people who didn't speak Greek, but then again they didn't like people from other city-states either until Alexander united them under Hellenism, a process which also involved Hellenizing foreigners—this is why the New Testament is in Greek rather than Aramaic or Hebrew. But these Hellenized people were accepted as Greek—in fact, Hellenized Jews were so desperate to assimilate that they practiced a brutal surgery called an epispasm to restore their foreskins so that they could attend the gymnasium, where all attendees were nude. They certainly enslaved plenty of other Greeks as well as foreigners. No concept of race, and slavery had no basis in race.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 8:55pmAncient Greece?eumaas wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 8:51pmYes. Race-based slavery is a historically recent phenomenon. The point about xenophobia is fine, obviously various social groups have fought each other throughout history, but color racism and race-based slavery are modern concepts.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 8:49pmam I wrong then?eumaas wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 8:46pmyou can keep asserting stuff without bothering to crack open a book, but it doesn't mean the idea you formulated in your head has anything to do with historical truth.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 8:42pm
Yep a dislike or distrust of anyone different to yourself has been happening for 40,000 years. Still happens to this day in the remotest most cut off parts of the world. Try going for a walk around the highlands of Papua New Guinea.
Race based slavery dates back thousands of years.
No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
- 101Walterton
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Are you guys seriously telling me that Romans, Greeks, Egyptians didn’t discriminate based on ethnicity?
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
First, you're equivocating between race and ethnicity. Not the same thing. That moves the goalposts. As I have acknowledged, various groups throughout history have definitely had animosity towards foreigners. However, to my second point, yes, those societies did practice assimilation, so even that animosity had its limits. We have plenty of records. For Egypt why not pick a famous example: Cleopatra, who was Greek by descent, a member of the Ptolemaic dynasty, yet accepted as Egyptian and worshipped as divine. For the Romans, the Severan Emperors even had Punic ancestry, i.e. from Carthage, what was once Rome's most notable enemy.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:09pmAre you guys seriously telling me that Romans, Greeks, Egyptians didn’t discriminate based on ethnicity?
A modern person, steeped in racism, would consider all black Africans to be the same race, despite not sharing the same language, culture, religion, and polity. On the other hand it wouldn't occur to an ancient person to group them all together. It would be a tough sell to convince an ancient Roman that the Latins, Greeks, Germans, and Thracians were all one people, i.e. white, yet that is what race means.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
- 101Walterton
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
and Adolf Hitler wasn't Aryan.eumaas wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:21pmFirst, you're equivocating between race and ethnicity. Not the same thing. That moves the goalposts. As I have acknowledged, various groups throughout history have definitely had animosity towards foreigners. However, to my second point, yes, those societies did practice assimilation, so even that animosity had its limits. We have plenty of records. For Egypt why not pick a famous example: Cleopatra, who was Greek by descent, a member of the Ptolemaic dynasty, yet accepted as Egyptian and worshipped as divine. For the Romans, the Severan Emperors even had Punic ancestry, i.e. from Carthage, what was once Rome's most notable enemy.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:09pmAre you guys seriously telling me that Romans, Greeks, Egyptians didn’t discriminate based on ethnicity?
A modern person, steeped in racism, would consider all black Africans to be the same race, despite not sharing the same language, culture, religion, and polity. On the other hand it wouldn't occur to an ancient person to group them all together. It would be a tough sell to convince an ancient Roman that the Latins, Greeks, Germans, and Thracians were all one people, i.e. white, yet that is what race means.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Aryan was a linguistic term that got turned into a racial one based on a view of how the Indo-European language family spread, a view that is no longer current among scholars.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:39pmand Adolf Hitler wasn't Aryan.eumaas wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:21pmFirst, you're equivocating between race and ethnicity. Not the same thing. That moves the goalposts. As I have acknowledged, various groups throughout history have definitely had animosity towards foreigners. However, to my second point, yes, those societies did practice assimilation, so even that animosity had its limits. We have plenty of records. For Egypt why not pick a famous example: Cleopatra, who was Greek by descent, a member of the Ptolemaic dynasty, yet accepted as Egyptian and worshipped as divine. For the Romans, the Severan Emperors even had Punic ancestry, i.e. from Carthage, what was once Rome's most notable enemy.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:09pmAre you guys seriously telling me that Romans, Greeks, Egyptians didn’t discriminate based on ethnicity?
A modern person, steeped in racism, would consider all black Africans to be the same race, despite not sharing the same language, culture, religion, and polity. On the other hand it wouldn't occur to an ancient person to group them all together. It would be a tough sell to convince an ancient Roman that the Latins, Greeks, Germans, and Thracians were all one people, i.e. white, yet that is what race means.
What are you trying to say with that non sequitur?
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
- 101Walterton
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
That there are always anomalies and for any number of reasons.eumaas wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:42pmAryan was a linguistic term that got turned into a racial one based on a view of how the Indo-European language family spread, a view that is no longer current among scholars.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:39pmand Adolf Hitler wasn't Aryan.eumaas wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:21pmFirst, you're equivocating between race and ethnicity. Not the same thing. That moves the goalposts. As I have acknowledged, various groups throughout history have definitely had animosity towards foreigners. However, to my second point, yes, those societies did practice assimilation, so even that animosity had its limits. We have plenty of records. For Egypt why not pick a famous example: Cleopatra, who was Greek by descent, a member of the Ptolemaic dynasty, yet accepted as Egyptian and worshipped as divine. For the Romans, the Severan Emperors even had Punic ancestry, i.e. from Carthage, what was once Rome's most notable enemy.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:09pmAre you guys seriously telling me that Romans, Greeks, Egyptians didn’t discriminate based on ethnicity?
A modern person, steeped in racism, would consider all black Africans to be the same race, despite not sharing the same language, culture, religion, and polity. On the other hand it wouldn't occur to an ancient person to group them all together. It would be a tough sell to convince an ancient Roman that the Latins, Greeks, Germans, and Thracians were all one people, i.e. white, yet that is what race means.
What are you trying to say with that non sequitur?
Yes Aryan is a very old theory.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
The racial theory dates back to the 19th century, which is not very old. The self-appellation by Indo-Iranians is indeed very old, but not a theory.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:45pmThat there are always anomalies and for any number of reasons.eumaas wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:42pmAryan was a linguistic term that got turned into a racial one based on a view of how the Indo-European language family spread, a view that is no longer current among scholars.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:39pmand Adolf Hitler wasn't Aryan.eumaas wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:21pmFirst, you're equivocating between race and ethnicity. Not the same thing. That moves the goalposts. As I have acknowledged, various groups throughout history have definitely had animosity towards foreigners. However, to my second point, yes, those societies did practice assimilation, so even that animosity had its limits. We have plenty of records. For Egypt why not pick a famous example: Cleopatra, who was Greek by descent, a member of the Ptolemaic dynasty, yet accepted as Egyptian and worshipped as divine. For the Romans, the Severan Emperors even had Punic ancestry, i.e. from Carthage, what was once Rome's most notable enemy.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:09pmAre you guys seriously telling me that Romans, Greeks, Egyptians didn’t discriminate based on ethnicity?
A modern person, steeped in racism, would consider all black Africans to be the same race, despite not sharing the same language, culture, religion, and polity. On the other hand it wouldn't occur to an ancient person to group them all together. It would be a tough sell to convince an ancient Roman that the Latins, Greeks, Germans, and Thracians were all one people, i.e. white, yet that is what race means.
What are you trying to say with that non sequitur?
Yes Aryan is a very old theory.
Are you trying to say that the examples I gave were exceptional? I gave you famous ones because I thought they would be more familiar to you. But Romanization happened all the time. This is not some minor historical curiosity. It is a defining feature of the Roman Republic and Empire. They assimilated peoples all the time. Likewise for the ancient Egyptians, who accepted and assimilated immigrants. None of this is at all controversial.
Hellenism is all about assimilation, and was a defining period in cultures from Europe to India (see the Greco-Buddhist civilization which existed in what is now called Afghanistan for example). I gave you the example of the epispasm, but you can look throughout the Near East for examples of Hellenism. I don't see that as somehow anomalous when it is a major, defining feature.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
- 101Walterton
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
No what I am saying is that because there are examples of acceptance or 'non racist behaviour' doesn't mean the regime can't be racist. Likewise not everyone within a racist regime is necessarily racist.eumaas wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:58pmThe racial theory dates back to the 19th century, which is not very old. The self-appellation by Indo-Iranians is indeed very old, but not a theory.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:45pmThat there are always anomalies and for any number of reasons.eumaas wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:42pmAryan was a linguistic term that got turned into a racial one based on a view of how the Indo-European language family spread, a view that is no longer current among scholars.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:39pmand Adolf Hitler wasn't Aryan.eumaas wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 9:21pm
First, you're equivocating between race and ethnicity. Not the same thing. That moves the goalposts. As I have acknowledged, various groups throughout history have definitely had animosity towards foreigners. However, to my second point, yes, those societies did practice assimilation, so even that animosity had its limits. We have plenty of records. For Egypt why not pick a famous example: Cleopatra, who was Greek by descent, a member of the Ptolemaic dynasty, yet accepted as Egyptian and worshipped as divine. For the Romans, the Severan Emperors even had Punic ancestry, i.e. from Carthage, what was once Rome's most notable enemy.
A modern person, steeped in racism, would consider all black Africans to be the same race, despite not sharing the same language, culture, religion, and polity. On the other hand it wouldn't occur to an ancient person to group them all together. It would be a tough sell to convince an ancient Roman that the Latins, Greeks, Germans, and Thracians were all one people, i.e. white, yet that is what race means.
What are you trying to say with that non sequitur?
Yes Aryan is a very old theory.
Are you trying to say that the examples I gave were exceptional? I gave you famous ones because I thought they would be more familiar to you. But Romanization happened all the time. This is not some minor historical curiosity. It is a defining feature of the Roman Republic and Empire. They assimilated peoples all the time. Likewise for the ancient Egyptians, who accepted and assimilated immigrants. None of this is at all controversial.
Hellenism is all about assimilation, and was a defining period in cultures from Europe to India (see the Greco-Buddhist civilization which existed in what is now called Afghanistan for example). I gave you the example of the epispasm, but you can look throughout the Near East for examples of Hellenism. I don't see that as somehow anomalous when it is a major, defining feature.
Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
What I am talking about are precisely societies not individuals. Large scale patterns of social behavior that are well-documented as the societies we're discussing were literate and kept records. I'm not putting forward some weird, minority view of history, but rather the accepted scholarship on the issue. For example, you will see negative comments on foreign nations in Egyptian texts, yet you don't see that kind of negativity expressed towards the groups that had assimilated, even if they came from those same foreign nations originally. Furthermore, the very concept of race was not present in antiquity. It is a modern concept. As I said earlier, the idea that all Europeans were a single people is foreign to the ancient Roman mind. However, the notion that Rome could extend its culture across the globe, making all peoples Roman, including populations that we would call non-white, was a notion that was accepted. Tensions within the Roman Republic and Empire had precisely to do with resistance to assimilation.101Walterton wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 10:19pmNo what I am saying is that because there are examples of acceptance or 'non racist behaviour' doesn't mean the regime can't be racist. Likewise not everyone within a racist regime is necessarily racist.
You seem to be asserting that 1. racism is universal and has always existed, 2. despite the lack of evidence of modern racism among these ancient peoples and furthermore a history of widespread assimilation practiced over a long duration (very long in the case of Egypt), these societies were racist. You have not given any argument or evidence to believe 2 other than to assert that this widespread behavior was anomalous.
If every time I encounter a cat, I call it a cat, is that anomalous? How does regular, routine behavior constitute an anomaly?
Your reassertion that racism has always existed everywhere is not an argument, and it seems to hinge upon a second assertion that regular, widespread behavior is somehow anomalous, which is precisely what regularity doesn't mean.
Again, this is a case where you have a preconceived notion of the ancient world, and you are insisting upon it contrary to the historical record.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
— Morton Feldman
I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy
- Marky Dread
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
This is the key "the very concept of race was not present in antiquity".
Oh and Gene leave that cat alone.
Oh and Gene leave that cat alone.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Unless he is curious he will be ok.Marky Dread wrote: ↑29 May 2018, 10:52pmThis is the key "the very concept of race was not present in antiquity".
Oh and Gene leave that cat alone.
- 101Walterton
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
I was merely pointing out that people have always discriminated against other people and for any number of reasons (hence why I included ‘geography and iwi’ as examples unrelated to race) and always will.
Over and out.
Over and out.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Hey everybody Roseanne didn't mean it. It was all the fault of Ambien. Give me a break.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
Ambien's own response almost makes up for the stupidity of it all: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 654683002/Marky Dread wrote: ↑30 May 2018, 4:07pmHey everybody Roseanne didn't mean it. It was all the fault of Ambien. Give me a break.
- Marky Dread
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Racism is Pretty Much Over.
The EDL must take that by the bucketful.Rat Patrol wrote: ↑30 May 2018, 7:33pmAmbien's own response almost makes up for the stupidity of it all: https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nat ... 654683002/Marky Dread wrote: ↑30 May 2018, 4:07pmHey everybody Roseanne didn't mean it. It was all the fault of Ambien. Give me a break.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia