Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

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Marky Dread
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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

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coffeepotman wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 2:50pm
Another winner Marky! This is really interesting because there are some half decent tunes in there but it is so glaringly obvious how sorely Mick Jones is missing. Mick could have really whipped some of those songs like 3 card trick into shape. I think it's a sad statement on Joe because he just reverted back to the 101er's. Roots rock before and at least 15 years after the Clash. I don't think Mick gets his due at all, he was and is an a great musician, songwriter, innovator, and I think most of all arranger. The Clash history is so slanted to Joe and he just bombed up until the Meskies. I know I'm gonna get flamed for that but that's my opinion.
Not from me mate I'm in complete agreement. Mick was the writer of the best tunes and Joe the best lyrics.
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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

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Marky Dread wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 3:44pm
coffeepotman wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 2:50pm
Another winner Marky! This is really interesting because there are some half decent tunes in there but it is so glaringly obvious how sorely Mick Jones is missing. Mick could have really whipped some of those songs like 3 card trick into shape. I think it's a sad statement on Joe because he just reverted back to the 101er's. Roots rock before and at least 15 years after the Clash. I don't think Mick gets his due at all, he was and is an a great musician, songwriter, innovator, and I think most of all arranger. The Clash history is so slanted to Joe and he just bombed up until the Meskies. I know I'm gonna get flamed for that but that's my opinion.
Not from me mate I'm in complete agreement. Mick was the writer of the best tunes and Joe the best lyrics.
Post-Clash, I'm a Joe man all the way, but as regards the Clash they were a team and always got equal billing from me with Paul and Topper chipping in not insignificantly as well.

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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

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Joe was one of the all-time great frontmen, and it's very easy to exaggerate the role of the front man in a band. He handled his job extremely well, but no one was able to properly replace Mick and what he brought to the game.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Marky Dread
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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 4:05pm
Joe was one of the all-time great frontmen, and it's very easy to exaggerate the role of the front man in a band. He handled his job extremely well, but no one was able to properly replace Mick and what he brought to the game.
This.
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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 4:05pm
Joe was one of the all-time great frontmen, and it's very easy to exaggerate the role of the front man in a band. He handled his job extremely well, but no one was able to properly replace Mick and what he brought to the game.
Agreed, and I thought Mick tore ahead of Joe after the Clash and carried the flame. I know BAD aren't everyone's cup of tea but I thought they were great for that first four albums, and I totally fell in love with the debut album. Joe just seemed to wander around without focus for years whilst Mick seemed right on the ball.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

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Heston wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 4:31pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 4:05pm
Joe was one of the all-time great frontmen, and it's very easy to exaggerate the role of the front man in a band. He handled his job extremely well, but no one was able to properly replace Mick and what he brought to the game.
Agreed, and I thought Mick tore ahead of Joe after the Clash and carried the flame. I know BAD aren't everyone's cup of tea but I thought they were great for that first four albums, and I totally fell in love with the debut album. Joe just seemed to wander around without focus for years whilst Mick seemed right on the ball.
I love Joe's stuff but it took him years to look forward with his sound. Not until his work with Richard Norris did he really start "diggin' the new".
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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

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Agreed, and I thought Mick tore ahead of Joe after the Clash and carried the flame. I know BAD aren't everyone's cup of tea but I thought they were great for that first four albums, and I totally fell in love with the debut album. Joe just seemed to wander around without focus for years whilst Mick seemed right on the ball.
Agreed, though I personally thought the BAD-Clash comparisons were silly -- it was a different band and a different era, something I suspect Mick grasped more quickly than Joe, who vacillated, IMHO, between seeming to feel unworthy of greater success on his own, and giving people what he thought they wanted (Earthquake Weather)...which wasn't what he needed. :mrgreen: Or something along those lines.

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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

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Heston wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 4:31pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 4:05pm
Joe was one of the all-time great frontmen, and it's very easy to exaggerate the role of the front man in a band. He handled his job extremely well, but no one was able to properly replace Mick and what he brought to the game.
Agreed, and I thought Mick tore ahead of Joe after the Clash and carried the flame. I know BAD aren't everyone's cup of tea but I thought they were great for that first four albums, and I totally fell in love with the debut album. Joe just seemed to wander around without focus for years whilst Mick seemed right on the ball.
Those first two BAD albums are bloody fantastic, as clear a statement with regards to Mick's importance in the Clash as, indirectly, CTC was.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

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Chairman Ralph wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 4:47pm
Agreed, and I thought Mick tore ahead of Joe after the Clash and carried the flame. I know BAD aren't everyone's cup of tea but I thought they were great for that first four albums, and I totally fell in love with the debut album. Joe just seemed to wander around without focus for years whilst Mick seemed right on the ball.
Agreed, though I personally thought the BAD-Clash comparisons were silly -- it was a different band and a different era, something I suspect Mick grasped more quickly than Joe, who vacillated, IMHO, between seeming to feel unworthy of greater success on his own, and giving people what he thought they wanted (Earthquake Weather)...which wasn't what he needed. :mrgreen: Or something along those lines.
I agree that the comparisons aren't very useful. Like, you could also state that, had he been spared, Joe would, I'm fully certain, be making interesting and compelling music to this day while Mick, for unknown reasons, is in a hiatus or simply gone into early retirement. I have huge respect for Mick, both as a musician and a human being, but I guess I always found Joe the more fascinating figure, even during the creative wasteland of his fallow years, in fact all the more so during that period because he was working up to something that would turn out to be pretty special. That's just my opinion obviously.

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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

Post by coffeepotman »

I'd love to see a full length doc on Mick, from his early Mott loving days, London SS, Clash, BAD I and II, the brilliant early CSI and later stuff up to his latest RnR library music, which I happen to really like.

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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

Post by Chairman Ralph »

I agree that the comparisons aren't very useful. Like, you could also state that, had he been spared, Joe would, I'm fully certain, be making interesting and compelling music to this day while Mick, for unknown reasons, is in a hiatus or simply gone into early retirement. I have huge respect for Mick, both as a musician and a human being, but I guess I always found Joe the more fascinating figure, even during the creative wasteland of his fallow years, in fact all the more so during that period because he was working up to something that would turn out to be pretty special. That's just my opinion obviously.
As I recall, most of the BAD vs. Clash stuff seemed to come from the reviewers -- I don't remember anybody in my immediate circle making them. But I still feel they were overblown and not terribly insightful.

I too followed Joe throughout his so-called "wilderness years," though for a man laboring in the wilderness, as he often presented himself, he seemed to keep busy enough, didn't he? :mrgreen:

I, too, kept hoping that he could pull off the home run -- though I also think one reason that he struggled so much during the '80s was that the "lo-fi Luddite" vision that he pursued so doggedly simply didn't fit into the glossy, airbrushed pop landscape in which he was expected to operate (with nary a complaint).

When you read the stuff in Redemption Song about the "suits" demanding demos from him, like any other up-and-comer, during the EW era, for instance -- I can imagine how frustrated he got. I do think some sharper writing -- and better production -- would have made those issues moot, though I also tend to think that the presence of a sympathetic and less intrusive label (in Hellcat) played a big part in making his return more positive, and more successful. Funny how that works, isn't it?

I suspect that Mick may well re-emerge, either when the time seems right, or he finds something that he thinks is worth doing. Obviously, there's no statute of limitations on when (or if) that might occur, so we'll just have to wait and see, I suppose.

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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

Post by Inder »

Joe and Mick were a dynamite partnership, but it's probably worth mentioning that the new guys weren't exactly extended an invitation to contribute or collaborate in '84.

Vince was brought on after the November rehearsal tape and they were already playing California by January. So, not a lot of time to give the material a full treatment with people who haven't really ever played together.

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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

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If the Clash were a Ford Escort, Joe would be the motor, Topper would be the carburettor and Spark plugs, Paul would be the Go Fast stripes, spoilers, mag wheels and lowered suspension and Mick would be the power steering, ABS, fuel injector and Electronic Control Units.

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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

Post by Marky Dread »

101Walterton wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 5:58pm
If the Clash were a Ford Escort, Joe would be the motor, Topper would be the carburettor and Spark plugs, Paul would be the Go Fast stripes, spoilers, mag wheels and lowered suspension and Mick would be the power steering, ABS, fuel injector and Electronic Control Units.
...and Bernie would be the fluffy dice hanging from the mirror.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
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The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

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Re: Out Of Control Lucky 8 Studio Demos 1983

Post by Heston »

Marky Dread wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 7:14pm
101Walterton wrote:
31 Aug 2017, 5:58pm
If the Clash were a Ford Escort, Joe would be the motor, Topper would be the carburettor and Spark plugs, Paul would be the Go Fast stripes, spoilers, mag wheels and lowered suspension and Mick would be the power steering, ABS, fuel injector and Electronic Control Units.
...and Bernie would be the fluffy dice hanging from the mirror.
:lol: :lol:
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

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