Cut The Crap

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WestwayKid
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Re: Cut The Crap

Post by WestwayKid »

Heston wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 8:29pm
When are we gonna realise the major problem with CtC is the mix and production? It is really not a bad set of songs. Interesting chord changes, tight arrangements, Joe sounding great, and some very serviceable lyrics. The tunes are there. Are you telling me Are You Red..y isn't structurally and melodically better than This Is Radio Clash for example? Play To Win beats Mensforth Hill and Death Is a Star into the ground as an abstract piece.

We can never judge CtC against the Clash's other material until we hear it in a semi-professional mix. I doubt even London Calling would have sounded great with a shit drum machine and Bernie Rhodes producing.
I really want a Jose Unidos remix of the London Calling LP!! Anyone got Bernie's number? :mrgreen:
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Re: Cut The Crap

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I've landed on the side in the past that CtC may, song for song, actually be a better album that CR. But that sort of comparison sort of misses the point. Song by song analysis aside, the reality is that CR works within the aesthetic of Real Clash, and CtC does not. The strengths, weaknesses, triumphs and failure of the '82 effort are very much of a kind with the rest of the catalog of The Only Band That Matters. CtC is like a distorted mirror of that aesthetic. Again, at the micro level the songs may or may not land (or have potential, etc.) but when you pull back and look at the forest instead of the trees, it becomes obvious how perverse the album is in a way that CR never could be. That's both what makes continuous discussion of the Clash II release seem occasionally insane, but also somewhat irresistible.
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Re: Cut The Crap

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Flex wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 12:00pm
I've landed on the side in the past that CtC may, song for song, actually be a better album that CR. But that sort of comparison sort of misses the point. Song by song analysis aside, the reality is that CR works within the aesthetic of Real Clash, and CtC does not. The strengths, weaknesses, triumphs and failure of the '82 effort are very much of a kind with the rest of the catalog of The Only Band That Matters. CtC is like a distorted mirror of that aesthetic. Again, at the micro level the songs may or may not land (or have potential, etc.) but when you pull back and look at the forest instead of the trees, it becomes obvious how perverse the album is in a way that CR never could be. That's both what makes continuous discussion of the Clash II release seem occasionally insane, but also somewhat irresistible.
Totally this. Ok, I'm on the other side of the Ctc v CR issue, but otherwise nailed it. I remember listening to an extended Joe interview the night before he came to play our town in 84. He was ranting and raving about all this spirit of 77 and going back to basics stuff and then they paused to play Dictator off the album. It felt jarring and utterly preposterous. I think Joe's righteous anger was merely a very ineffectual mask for his sense of failure and deep self-loathing at that stage. There was no artistic potential in it.

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Re: Cut The Crap

Post by Heston »

Low Down Low wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 12:16pm
Flex wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 12:00pm
I've landed on the side in the past that CtC may, song for song, actually be a better album that CR. But that sort of comparison sort of misses the point. Song by song analysis aside, the reality is that CR works within the aesthetic of Real Clash, and CtC does not. The strengths, weaknesses, triumphs and failure of the '82 effort are very much of a kind with the rest of the catalog of The Only Band That Matters. CtC is like a distorted mirror of that aesthetic. Again, at the micro level the songs may or may not land (or have potential, etc.) but when you pull back and look at the forest instead of the trees, it becomes obvious how perverse the album is in a way that CR never could be. That's both what makes continuous discussion of the Clash II release seem occasionally insane, but also somewhat irresistible.
Totally this. Ok, I'm on the other side of the Ctc v CR issue, but otherwise nailed it. I remember listening to an extended Joe interview the night before he came to play our town in 84. He was ranting and raving about all this spirit of 77 and going back to basics stuff and then they paused to play Dictator off the album. It felt jarring and utterly preposterous. I think Joe's righteous anger was merely a very ineffectual mask for his sense of failure and deep self-loathing at that stage. There was no artistic potential in it.
Would that be an advance copy of Dictator (released in Nov 85)? ;)
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Re: Cut The Crap

Post by Heston »

Low Down Low wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:24am
appleseed1 wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:12am
Heston wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 8:29pm
When are we gonna realise the major problem with CtC is the mix and production? It is really not a bad set of songs. Interesting chord changes, tight arrangements, Joe sounding great, and some very serviceable lyrics. The tunes are there. Are you telling me Are You Red..y isn't structurally and melodically better than This Is Radio Clash for example? Play To Win beats Mensforth Hill and Death Is a Star into the ground as an abstract piece.

We can never judge CtC against the Clash's other material until we hear it in a semi-professional mix. I doubt even London Calling would have sounded great with a shit drum machine and Bernie Rhodes producing.
I think you're right, Heston, though I love TiRC and doubt Are You Red ...y could be elevated above it. Nonetheless, though, the point remains.
Not so sure. I think it just tells me that structure and melody are only two of several factors that go into making a great song. I mean, could you not equally suggest Are You Redy is structurally and melodically better than London Calling?
No, because LC is actually a very well constructed song. The shortcomings in the melody are bolstered by an amazing riff, great bassline and fantastic drums. This Is Radio Clash is just a vamp on two chords with a lyric far short of LC.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

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Re: Cut The Crap

Post by Low Down Low »

Heston wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 12:33pm
Low Down Low wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 12:16pm
Flex wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 12:00pm
I've landed on the side in the past that CtC may, song for song, actually be a better album that CR. But that sort of comparison sort of misses the point. Song by song analysis aside, the reality is that CR works within the aesthetic of Real Clash, and CtC does not. The strengths, weaknesses, triumphs and failure of the '82 effort are very much of a kind with the rest of the catalog of The Only Band That Matters. CtC is like a distorted mirror of that aesthetic. Again, at the micro level the songs may or may not land (or have potential, etc.) but when you pull back and look at the forest instead of the trees, it becomes obvious how perverse the album is in a way that CR never could be. That's both what makes continuous discussion of the Clash II release seem occasionally insane, but also somewhat irresistible.
Totally this. Ok, I'm on the other side of the Ctc v CR issue, but otherwise nailed it. I remember listening to an extended Joe interview the night before he came to play our town in 84. He was ranting and raving about all this spirit of 77 and going back to basics stuff and then they paused to play Dictator off the album. It felt jarring and utterly preposterous. I think Joe's righteous anger was merely a very ineffectual mask for his sense of failure and deep self-loathing at that stage. There was no artistic potential in it.
Would that be an advance copy of Dictator (released in Nov 85)? ;)
Ah ha i think you got me there in fairness! I genuinely did remember that for some reason or convinced myself I did at least, but really all I recall are snippets of that interview which was just Joe sounding off about various stuff (an extended rant against TOTP i specifically recall) but not substantially different from any Joe interview of the period I'd say!

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Re: Cut The Crap

Post by Low Down Low »

Heston wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 12:36pm
Low Down Low wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:24am
appleseed1 wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:12am
Heston wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 8:29pm
When are we gonna realise the major problem with CtC is the mix and production? It is really not a bad set of songs. Interesting chord changes, tight arrangements, Joe sounding great, and some very serviceable lyrics. The tunes are there. Are you telling me Are You Red..y isn't structurally and melodically better than This Is Radio Clash for example? Play To Win beats Mensforth Hill and Death Is a Star into the ground as an abstract piece.

We can never judge CtC against the Clash's other material until we hear it in a semi-professional mix. I doubt even London Calling would have sounded great with a shit drum machine and Bernie Rhodes producing.
I think you're right, Heston, though I love TiRC and doubt Are You Red ...y could be elevated above it. Nonetheless, though, the point remains.
Not so sure. I think it just tells me that structure and melody are only two of several factors that go into making a great song. I mean, could you not equally suggest Are You Redy is structurally and melodically better than London Calling?
No, because LC is actually a very well constructed song. The shortcomings in the melody are bolstered by an amazing riff, great bassline and fantastic drums. This Is Radio Clash is just a vamp on two chords with a lyric far short of LC.
Yes I'm in total agreement about LC. But a lot of songs are going to lose out in direct comparison, i actually quite like TIRC for what it is, particularly the alternate which is my go-to version. I think lyrically it's a pretty decent song.

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Re: Cut The Crap

Post by Heston »

Low Down Low wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 1:01pm
Heston wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 12:36pm
Low Down Low wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:24am
appleseed1 wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 11:12am
Heston wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 8:29pm
When are we gonna realise the major problem with CtC is the mix and production? It is really not a bad set of songs. Interesting chord changes, tight arrangements, Joe sounding great, and some very serviceable lyrics. The tunes are there. Are you telling me Are You Red..y isn't structurally and melodically better than This Is Radio Clash for example? Play To Win beats Mensforth Hill and Death Is a Star into the ground as an abstract piece.

We can never judge CtC against the Clash's other material until we hear it in a semi-professional mix. I doubt even London Calling would have sounded great with a shit drum machine and Bernie Rhodes producing.
I think you're right, Heston, though I love TiRC and doubt Are You Red ...y could be elevated above it. Nonetheless, though, the point remains.
Not so sure. I think it just tells me that structure and melody are only two of several factors that go into making a great song. I mean, could you not equally suggest Are You Redy is structurally and melodically better than London Calling?
No, because LC is actually a very well constructed song. The shortcomings in the melody are bolstered by an amazing riff, great bassline and fantastic drums. This Is Radio Clash is just a vamp on two chords with a lyric far short of LC.
Yes I'm in total agreement about LC. But a lot of songs are going to lose out in direct comparison, i actually quite like TIRC for what it is, particularly the alternate which is my go-to version. I think lyrically it's a pretty decent song.
I love it too, and like you I prefer the alternate version. I was just trying to make the point that the songs on CtC aren't lacking any of the Clash's usual melodic and structural flourishes, despite the absence of Mick.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

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Re: Cut The Crap

Post by Wolter »

It’s very weird to be in the (admittedly minority) position of believing that Heston is saying something sensible and measured about music.
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Re: Cut The Crap

Post by Flex »

Wolter wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 2:53pm
It’s very weird to be in the (admittedly minority) position of believing that Heston is saying something sensible and measured about music.
Cut the Crap brings us through the looking glass in every possible way.

I actually agree with Hes too. I don't think my position above is irreconcilable from Heston's basic thesis. It's just that it's looking at the album in two totally different ways.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

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Re: Cut The Crap

Post by Wolter »

Flex wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 2:56pm
Wolter wrote:
15 Nov 2017, 2:53pm
It’s very weird to be in the (admittedly minority) position of believing that Heston is saying something sensible and measured about music.
Cut the Crap brings us through the looking glass in every possible way.

I actually agree with Hes too. I don't think my position above is irreconcilable from Heston's basic thesis. It's just that it's looking at the album in two totally different ways.
I agree with what you said too, actually.
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Re: Cut The Crap

Post by WestwayKid »

We have the Lucky 8 demos...would that not sort of at least give a snapshot of what CtC could have been? Yes, they are demos - but just the core of Joe, Paul, Nick, and Pete. No Vince (ha, ha) and no cut rate German drum machine. I'm listening to Marky's remaster right now - maybe first time "really" listening all the way through. I'll give some further opinions on the matter after I listen a couple of times.
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Re: Cut The Crap

Post by daredevil »

matedog wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 11:32am
daredevil wrote:
13 Nov 2017, 6:40pm
Sex Mad Roar and Do It Now would be how the rest of the album sounded. Weren't these produced by Joe and Nick?
Still Joe and Bernie, just allowed Pete to finally play and then gave him the worst drum sound ever.
I got a feeling Pete's drum sound was mixed to sound like the drum tracks on the album.

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Re: Cut The Crap

Post by Marky Dread »

daredevil wrote:
22 Nov 2017, 1:43pm
matedog wrote:
14 Nov 2017, 11:32am
daredevil wrote:
13 Nov 2017, 6:40pm
Sex Mad Roar and Do It Now would be how the rest of the album sounded. Weren't these produced by Joe and Nick?
Still Joe and Bernie, just allowed Pete to finally play and then gave him the worst drum sound ever.
I got a feeling Pete's drum sound was mixed to sound like the drum tracks on the album.
Replaced by a Linn drum.
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