If Music Could Talk

Is there a definitive New York punk album? I've bought albums by loads of bands from the scene, but can't think of something that has 'it'. Does anyone have live thins from that time? I konw of Patti Smith, Television, Ramones gigs, but some other bands were about. Tuff Darts? Mind you, I'll forget Blondie.

I wouldn't say there was, because taste is different from person to person.

You could make an argument for any of a number of albums, and someone else could make an equally valid counterargument, defending on what the definition of NY punk is: three-chord rock, art noise, angular neo-funk fusion, etc., etc.

is my favorite kind of punk. There, I've said it.

As Jon said, NY Punk was a punk of many strains.

I think Blank Generation, LAMF, Marquee Moon, Talking Heads: 77 (or More Songs About Buildings and Food--it's to your taste), and the self-titled Ramones record sum up the essential strains. My favorite record of the period is Blank Generation. Actually, that's my favorite punk album--Pink Flag is my second favorite.

That should cover the major strains. Sometime today or tomorrow (I promise, Robin!) I'll be writing about Blank Generation on my blog. You might be interested. I'm focusing on the avant strains of punk as opposed to the glam and Ramonesian strains.

http://clashcity.com/boards/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=3767

Wolter wrote:I wouldn't say there was, because taste is different from person to person.

You could make an argument for any of a number of albums, and someone else could make an equally valid counterargument, defending on what the definition of NY punk is: three-chord rock, art noise, angular neo-funk fusion, etc., etc.

You could apply that to London punk, too. Punk is far more of an umbrella term than an actual genre, imo. Like porn, it's in the eye of the beholder.

Dr. Medulla wrote:

Wolter wrote:I wouldn't say there was, because taste is different from person to person.

You could make an argument for any of a number of albums, and someone else could make an equally valid counterargument, defending on what the definition of NY punk is: three-chord rock, art noise, angular neo-funk fusion, etc., etc.

You could apply that to London punk, too. Punk is far more of an umbrella term than an actual genre, imo. Like porn, it's in the eye of the beholder.

Some London punk was basically glam, some was basically Ramones, and some was basically art rock (like Voidoids or Television)--Wire being the prime example.

eumaas wrote:

Dr. Medulla wrote:

Wolter wrote:I wouldn't say there was, because taste is different from person to person.

You could make an argument for any of a number of albums, and someone else could make an equally valid counterargument, defending on what the definition of NY punk is: three-chord rock, art noise, angular neo-funk fusion, etc., etc.

You could apply that to London punk, too. Punk is far more of an umbrella term than an actual genre, imo. Like porn, it's in the eye of the beholder.

Some London punk was basically glam, some was basically Ramones, and some was basically art rock (like Voidoids or Television)--Wire being the prime example.

Yeah, exactly. Most, if not all, were still just drawing on their childhood influences, but weren't very good technically. The significant break was in attitude—who cares that we're not very good, just fucking make a racket and have fun.

Dr. Medulla wrote:

eumaas wrote:

Dr. Medulla wrote:

Wolter wrote:I wouldn't say there was, because taste is different from person to person.

You could make an argument for any of a number of albums, and someone else could make an equally valid counterargument, defending on what the definition of NY punk is: three-chord rock, art noise, angular neo-funk fusion, etc., etc.

You could apply that to London punk, too. Punk is far more of an umbrella term than an actual genre, imo. Like porn, it's in the eye of the beholder.

Some London punk was basically glam, some was basically Ramones, and some was basically art rock (like Voidoids or Television)--Wire being the prime example.

Yeah, exactly. Most, if not all, were still just drawing on their childhood influences, but weren't very good technically. The significant break was in attitude—who cares that we're not very good, just fucking make a racket and have fun.

Where punk really gets interesting for me is the transition to post-punk. I think Joy Division is the classic case study: that basic punk sound of Warsaw quickly gave way to something much stranger and more ambitious. Many people attribute this to Hannett, but I don't think it was his influence alone. Bernard Sumner's guitar work is often denigrated--and yes, it's primitive--but it has a droning, hypnotic quality in common with the sound pursued by Killing Joke for example. It's loud, sloppy, and aggressive (see any of JD's live gigs), but it takes after the Velvet Underground and the Stooges, not the New York Dolls or the Ramones.

All those are good suggestions. If I had to pick one album to define "New York Punk" it would Blank Generation.

Flex wrote:All those are good suggestions. If I had to pick one album to define "New York Punk" it would Blank Generation.

Blank Generation or Marquee Moon to emphasize its difference from London Punk, LAMF and Ramones to emphasize its similarity

Flex wrote:All those are good suggestions. If I had to pick one album to define "New York Punk" it would Blank Generation.

I probably would too, because it's arty, but still sounds like rock'n'roll. It's nihilistic, but erudite. It's grating, but you can still dance to it.

Technically, that might just be why I like it...

eumaas wrote:Where punk really gets interesting for me is the transition to post-punk.

I agree. Punk, while entertaining, is pretty much a dead-end in terms of what gets done album-to-album, song-to-song. Post-punk kept the best part of punk—the attitude—and tried to apply it to other forms.

I think Joy Division is the classic case study: that basic punk sound of Warsaw quickly gave way to something much stranger and more ambitious. Many people attribute this to Hannett, but I don't think it was his influence alone. Bernard Sumner's guitar work is often denigrated--and yes, it's primitive--but it has a droning, hypnotic quality in common with the sound pursued by Killing Joke for example. It's loud, sloppy, and aggressive (see any of JD's live gigs), but it takes after the Velvet Underground and the Stooges, not the New York Dolls or the Ramones.

It really is remarkable to consider the growth from Warsaw to Joy Division to early New Order. That's basically the same band? Well, yeah, you can definitely hear the common elements—especially the rhythm section—but they were discarding and acquiring at a fantastic rate. Same thing with Wire on the three Harvest albums (plus Dome), and, tho much denigrated here, Radiohead. Pablo Honey to OK Computer—again, in three albums, it's hard to think that it's the same band.

Also: another vote for Blank Generation. I'm not a huge fan of New York punk, but I'd rate that and Talking Heads 77 as my favourites from that scene.

dave202 wrote:Is there a definitive New York punk album?

Ramones

BR16ADE_R055E wrote:

dave202 wrote:Is there a definitive New York punk album?

Ramones

I actually think that record is more atypical than not for NY Punk.

eumaas wrote:

BR16ADE_R055E wrote:

dave202 wrote:Is there a definitive New York punk album?

Ramones

I actually think that record is more atypical than not for NY Punk.

Exactly. They were fairly unique in the scene. I loves 'em, and if we were doing a roundup of albums it would be essential, but I don't think they were very indicative of what the NY scene was known for. That would be Marquee Moon or Blank Generation. Maybe Easter.

Flex wrote:

eumaas wrote:

BR16ADE_R055E wrote:

dave202 wrote:Is there a definitive New York punk album?

Ramones

I actually think that record is more atypical than not for NY Punk.

Exactly. They were fairly unique in the scene. I loves 'em, and if we were doing a roundup of albums it would be essential, but I don't think they were very indicative of what the NY scene was known for. That would be Marquee Moon or Blank Generation. Maybe Easter.

I think Hell or Verlaine sort of supersede Smith. There's nothing Smith does that couldn't be summed up by Blank Generation or Marquee Moon. That's not to deny her, but just that she isn't different enough that Easter should stand apart.