The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

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oliver
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by oliver »

Marky Dread wrote:
23 May 2019, 11:12am
He exagerates nothing as far as I can see. It's all intentional or he could simply say something else. Once is a mistake twice is a mistake too far. There is nothing ''hyperbolic'' about wearing a ''Britain First'' badge. Where is this Britain he thinks that is worth saving?. It died about 65 years ago. He a man out of time and out of touch with reality. The world is full of crashing bores and Morrissey is king of bore mountain.
I was talking more generally... things like (as a positive) "you can't find eggs in supermarkets" or (as a negative) "the rhino is extinct because of Beyonce"
Hyperbolic stuff not supposed to be taken *totally* seriously but with a grain of truth in there. That's what I meant with regards to the Chinese comment.

As an aside - he supports "For Britain" not "Britain First" which is a separate organization.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

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oliver wrote:
23 May 2019, 11:29am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
23 May 2019, 11:08am
If you prefer the term bigot, that works, too.
Personally, I'd go with Islamophobe. I think it fits best.
I used to try to explain away his comments about non-white peoples because to me someone who built himself up as the champion of the shy outsider and animal rights just didn't fit the profile of a basic bigot. It's still odd to me. But at a certain point all those "isolated" examples became a pattern that couldn't be rationalized any other way. And now he's wholly unambiguous about his affection for far-right racist politics and ideas.
This is where I get confused. I don't see him as anti-non-white *at all*. He is very positive about US civil rights (he's been talking about James Baldwin for years and sings about Medgar Evers on his latest album) and very positive about Mexico. He talks about how much he loves Rome and Istanbul and Tel Aviv.

From what I can tell, he has taken on board everything Sam Harris and Douglas Murray have ever said about Islam (he has quoted both in the past) and run with it.
It's not uncommon for racists to be inconsistent or contradictory. Teds in the 1950s, for example, could be both fans of rock n roll and violently anti-immigrant. Much of Morrissey's racism, I think, is an extension of xenophobia and a romantic notion of a pure England that never was. He may respect some black people (African Americans, but not Caribbean blacks) but he doesn't want them in his country. He sees them as contaminating. It's not the same as outright hating another group of people, but is is a kissing cousin.
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oliver
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by oliver »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
23 May 2019, 11:47am
It's not uncommon for racists to be inconsistent or contradictory. Teds in the 1950s, for example, could be both fans of rock n roll and violently anti-immigrant. Much of Morrissey's racism, I think, is an extension of xenophobia and a romantic notion of a pure England that never was. He may respect some black people (African Americans, but not Caribbean blacks) but he doesn't want them in his country. He sees them as contaminating. It's not the same as outright hating another group of people, but is is a kissing cousin.
Interesting... never really considered that.
Morrissey is definitely contradictory.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

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I'm not coming away from Islamaphobe and bigot being anything less than synonymous.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Marky Dread »

oliver wrote:
23 May 2019, 11:40am
Marky Dread wrote:
23 May 2019, 11:12am
He exagerates nothing as far as I can see. It's all intentional or he could simply say something else. Once is a mistake twice is a mistake too far. There is nothing ''hyperbolic'' about wearing a ''Britain First'' badge. Where is this Britain he thinks that is worth saving?. It died about 65 years ago. He a man out of time and out of touch with reality. The world is full of crashing bores and Morrissey is king of bore mountain.
I was talking more generally... things like (as a positive) "you can't find eggs in supermarkets" or (as a negative) "the rhino is extinct because of Beyonce"
Hyperbolic stuff not supposed to be taken *totally* seriously but with a grain of truth in there. That's what I meant with regards to the Chinese comment.

As an aside - he supports "For Britain" not "Britain First" which is a separate organization.
Yes that was a mistake on my part and Morrissey's. Both parties can fuck off from where I'm standing. One step away from Oswald Moseley and Enoch Powell. SCUM.
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oliver
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by oliver »

Silent Majority wrote:
23 May 2019, 12:06pm
I'm not coming away from Islamaphobe and bigot being anything less than synonymous.
You're probably right. And I don't doubt that most of my defence of Morrissey is down to the fact I I've never gone more than 2 weeks without hearing one of his songs for close to 3/4s of my life.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Flex »

You don't unintentionally call an entire group of people a subspecies. Combine that with the islamaphobic bigotry and his rivers of blood politics and it gets really hard to defend his personal views, imho.

I wouldn't blame anyone who keeps listening to the Smiths or his solo stuff- I was just discussing on Twitter that I haven't stopped listening to the bad folks whose work are still deeply, truly resonant for me, but I think we're generally better off not making excuses for the bad behavior of the wealthy and powerful.

Morrissey is what he is, it's up to the individual to decide how that impacts their view of his art. It's easy for me to castigate him, but I've only ever been a modest Smiths fan.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by drowninghere »

I like to rationalize it at least in part by thinking that people can and occasionally do get much worse on these type of issues as they get older. I haven't read that deeply into Morrissey's story and I know there were some warning signs early on (and that there was probably the seed of this in him from the beginning), but I am inclined to think that the Morrissey of the Smiths in the 80s is not the same as the present day version. It's also perhaps worth noting that Johnny Marr couldn't be more diametrically opposed to this type of politics/bigotry/racism, and I'd also like to think that he wouldn't have stood for it back in the day either.

Again, not saying this is correct, just a way to deal with the disconnect of the current situation.

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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Flex »

drowninghere wrote:
23 May 2019, 2:08pm
I like to rationalize it at least in part by thinking that people can and occasionally do get much worse on these type of issues as they get older. I haven't read that deeply into Morrissey's story and I know there were some warning signs early on (and that there was probably the seed of this in him from the beginning), but I am inclined to think that the Morrissey of the Smiths in the 80s is not the same as the present day version. It's also perhaps worth noting that Johnny Marr couldn't be more diametrically opposed to this type of politics/bigotry/racism, and I'd also like to think that he wouldn't have stood for it back in the day either.

Again, not saying this is correct, just a way to deal with the disconnect of the current situation.
Yeah, I think Marr comes off really well over time in all this. Great musician and great sensibility about him.

I dont think there's any perfect or uniform way to deal with pop culture, generally speaking.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Marky Dread »

Flex wrote:
23 May 2019, 1:06pm
You don't unintentionally call an entire group of people a subspecies. Combine that with the islamaphobic bigotry and his rivers of blood politics and it gets really hard to defend his personal views, imho.

I wouldn't blame anyone who keeps listening to the Smiths or his solo stuff- I was just discussing on Twitter that I haven't stopped listening to the bad folks whose work are still deeply, truly resonant for me, but I think we're generally better off not making excuses for the bad behavior of the wealthy and powerful.

Morrissey is what he is, it's up to the individual to decide how that impacts their view of his art. It's easy for me to castigate him, but I've only ever been a modest Smiths fan.
I'll co sign this just before I knock Morrissey the fuck out.
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oliver
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by oliver »

Flex wrote:
23 May 2019, 1:06pm
You don't unintentionally call an entire group of people a subspecies. Combine that with the islamaphobic bigotry and his rivers of blood politics and it gets really hard to defend his personal views, imho.
My point on that was that I considered it hyperbolic in it's magnitude but clumsy in that it can be dismissed when talking about an individual (Elton John or Beyonce) but it's not so easy when talking about an entire group.

To me, words and just words and it's the context that either makes them racist or aggressive or ugly or benign. Two different people can say the exact same phrase to someone and have it mean the polar opposite.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Marky Dread »

oliver wrote:
24 May 2019, 8:39am
Flex wrote:
23 May 2019, 1:06pm
You don't unintentionally call an entire group of people a subspecies. Combine that with the islamaphobic bigotry and his rivers of blood politics and it gets really hard to defend his personal views, imho.
My point on that was that I considered it hyperbolic in it's magnitude but clumsy in that it can be dismissed when talking about an individual (Elton John or Beyonce) but it's not so easy when talking about an entire group.

To me, words and just words and it's the context that either makes them racist or aggressive or ugly or benign. Two different people can say the exact same phrase to someone and have it mean the polar opposite.
Don't see how two different people could call an entire race of people a ''subspecies'' and it not have the same meaning.

Oliver you seem a real good guy and I like having you around. Just like you I like his music The Smiths/solo and there is no guilt in that. But he has become everything I despise and close to becoming something that is against all my principles his bullshit shows no signs of stopping and he is simply not worth making excuses for anymore. I tried to understand his reasoning as I believe in giving people the benefit of the doubt. However him wearing that badge was the straw that broke the camels back. Playing gigs for Love Music/Hate Racism and then wearing a badge that promotes ''For Britain'' it's just hypocrisy. Showing support for Nigel Farage/Tommy Robinson etc is a sure sign he has lost the plot and if this is a game to him then it's stupid and senseless. I know he is a very intelligent man and he knows only full well that what he says at any given time will stir the pot he is extemely calculated. He feels the England he loves has died but it never really existed except in his kitchen sink drama of a mind.

The Clash fought the good fight against this bullshit and made a stand something that influenced me greatly in my thinking. I lost some friends along the way due to right-wing propaganda and bullshit political rhetoric. This is something that has affected me greatly throughout my life. England belongs to all.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by WestwayKid »

Let's not forget that allegations of racism have followed Morrissey for many, many years. It's something he flirted with from the get go and at times went beyond simply flirting with it. I don't know what his motivation is, but I also honestly don't care. Will I still listen to his music? Probably. Would I ever consider going to see him live again? No. I don't know if I'll even buy any of his new music. Whatever his motivation(s) are - they're not good. If he truly believes this stuff - he's a really bad dude. If he's just doing it to be provocative - he's still a really bad dude because he's spreading hurtful/hateful ideas for no other reason than to try and remain relevant. There is no good way to spin his behavior. I agree with Marky - I look at a band like the Clash and one of the main reasons I got into them and remain such a big fan is because they spent their career fighting this kind of crap. I'm proud to be a fan of the Clash because of what they stood for (and for what their music continues to stand for).
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Marky Dread »

WestwayKid wrote:
24 May 2019, 9:36am
Let's not forget that allegations of racism have followed Morrissey for many, many years. It's something he flirted with from the get go and at times went beyond simply flirting with it. I don't know what his motivation is, but I also honestly don't care. Will I still listen to his music? Probably. Would I ever consider going to see him live again? No. I don't know if I'll even buy any of his new music. Whatever his motivation(s) are - they're not good. If he truly believes this stuff - he's a really bad dude. If he's just doing it to be provocative - he's still a really bad dude because he's spreading hurtful/hateful ideas for no other reason than to try and remain relevant. There is no good way to spin his behavior. I agree with Marky - I look at a band like the Clash and one of the main reasons I got into them and remain such a big fan is because they spent their career fighting this kind of crap. I'm proud to be a fan of the Clash because of what they stood for (and for what their music continues to stand for).
The music side. I can separate the two and I often think with The Smiths / Moz solo that he is just the mouthpiece and the other musicians are the sound of those bands. What I would genuinely be interested in knowing is if those musicians he currently plays with support any of his bullshit. I think the The Smiths and some of his early stuff is great but if I had to live without his music because of his bullshit I can live with that also. So many great artists to like that don't support his crap.
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Re: The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
24 May 2019, 10:05am
What I would genuinely be interested in knowing is if those musicians he currently plays with support any of his bullshit.
Assuming they don't share his political views, I would guess that they do what a lot of fans do (and are doing in Morrissey's case)—separate the art from the artist. Or, they're doing it strictly for the paycheque, tho if they can get hired by Morrissey, they can find work with others, I'd think. It'd be great if his band turned their back on him out of principle, but I can't begrudge them if they love the performance and the fans.
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