The All Smiths/Morrissey Thread

[Dr. Medulla]

In my most recent Popcast, I posited that Morrissey might re-record Panic with the far-right baiting chorus "Hang the nonces, hang the nonces, hang the nonces."

One of the sad things about Morrissey is that his music has meant so much to so many people. It definitely meant something to me as an awkward teenager. It's been very sad to see him reveal himself as an absolute troll.

Yeah, it stung to find out that, no, he wasn't an advocate for tolerance and acceptance of all kinds of weirdos and outcasts, as so many of us thought. He had a much narrower slice in mind and regarded others with real malice. Of course, there's nothing stopping us from continuing to regard those songs as being about acceptance, but he's such a forceful presence and the work so personal that it's hard to detach the two. A shame that the rest of the band gets dragged down a bit in the process.

[Kory]

In my most recent Popcast, I posited that Morrissey might re-record Panic with the far-right baiting chorus "Hang the nonces, hang the nonces, hang the nonces."

One of the sad things about Morrissey is that his music has meant so much to so many people. It definitely meant something to me as an awkward teenager. It's been very sad to see him reveal himself as an absolute troll.

Yeah, it stung to find out that, no, he wasn't an advocate for tolerance and acceptance of all kinds of weirdos and outcasts, as so many of us thought. He had a much narrower slice in mind and regarded others with real malice. Of course, there's nothing stopping us from continuing to regard those songs as being about acceptance, but he's such a forceful presence and the work so personal that it's hard to detach the two. A shame that the rest of the band gets dragged down a bit in the process.

You definitely saw flashes of it back in those days, with him calling reggae racist and so on. In retrospect a lot of what he and Lydon have “become” seems fairly obvious. In retrospect. In retrospect.

[WestwayKid]

I'm really feeling something about the passing of Andy Rourke.

I had an older cousin who was my musical gateway when I was younger. He helped me get into music I never would have been exposed to as a kid in Wisconsin in the days before Spotify and Tidal and YouTube.

I learned the band names before I heard the music: from the t-shirts he wore to the posters he hung on his walls to the meticulously organized cassettes and LPs he had in his basement.

Around the time I turned 12, I started asking about the music and he obliged by making me mix tape after mix tape or dubbing entire albums from his collection.

He was a huge fan of The Smiths.

The first Smiths-related music I owned was a cutout copy of Bona Drag on cassette that I found at a local record shop. I played it to death because I loved it so much and from that point on it was all out on trying to find as much as I could and my cousin was all too happy to dub copies of his Smiths LPs.

We spent a lot of time listening to and talking about the music. We laughed about how crazy Morrissey was (little did we know). We marveled at Johnny's guitar playing or Mike Joyce's thundering drums. Andy Rourke was always a favorite topic because as I mentioned earlier, his bass playing was so unique and instrumental to their overall sound. The Smiths would not have sounded like The Smiths without him. Andy Rourke's bass playing was as important as Johnny Marr's guitar.

The Smiths were important to me. I'm sure many (if not all of you) can relate, but when I was an adolescent trying to figure out who I was, music was (to borrow a term from Morrissey) the "rubber ring" that kept me afloat.

I think one reason I cling to Morrissey's solo work is that there is always hope in the back of my mind that it will recreate the rush I felt the first time I heard The Smiths. It never does, but to borrow a bit more from Morrissey, "still I cling".

We lost my cousin unexpectedly a few years back. I miss talking about music with him. It's one of the reasons I enjoy hanging out here so much.

The Smiths have not been a going concern since 1987 and while there was not hint of a reunion ever, I felt something profound on hearing about Andy Rourke's death. His loss is not personal to me in the sense that I did not know him, but I knew him through the music he gave to the world.

[Dr. Medulla]

In my most recent Popcast, I posited that Morrissey might re-record Panic with the far-right baiting chorus "Hang the nonces, hang the nonces, hang the nonces."

One of the sad things about Morrissey is that his music has meant so much to so many people. It definitely meant something to me as an awkward teenager. It's been very sad to see him reveal himself as an absolute troll.

Yeah, it stung to find out that, no, he wasn't an advocate for tolerance and acceptance of all kinds of weirdos and outcasts, as so many of us thought. He had a much narrower slice in mind and regarded others with real malice. Of course, there's nothing stopping us from continuing to regard those songs as being about acceptance, but he's such a forceful presence and the work so personal that it's hard to detach the two. A shame that the rest of the band gets dragged down a bit in the process.

You definitely saw flashes of it back in those days, with him calling reggae racist and so on. In retrospect a lot of what he and Lydon have “become” seems fairly obvious. In retrospect. In retrospect.

That's the thing. You ask yourself whether they've changed or you misread them from the start. And it's hard not to conclude that I/we misread them, projecting what I/we wanted.

[WestwayKid]

In my most recent Popcast, I posited that Morrissey might re-record Panic with the far-right baiting chorus "Hang the nonces, hang the nonces, hang the nonces."

One of the sad things about Morrissey is that his music has meant so much to so many people. It definitely meant something to me as an awkward teenager. It's been very sad to see him reveal himself as an absolute troll.

Yeah, it stung to find out that, no, he wasn't an advocate for tolerance and acceptance of all kinds of weirdos and outcasts, as so many of us thought. He had a much narrower slice in mind and regarded others with real malice. Of course, there's nothing stopping us from continuing to regard those songs as being about acceptance, but he's such a forceful presence and the work so personal that it's hard to detach the two. A shame that the rest of the band gets dragged down a bit in the process.

You definitely saw flashes of it back in those days, with him calling reggae racist and so on. In retrospect a lot of what he and Lydon have “become” seems fairly obvious. In retrospect. In retrospect.

That's the thing. You ask yourself whether they've changed or you misread them from the start. And it's hard not to conclude that I/we misread them, projecting what I/we wanted.

I think in Morrissey’s case, I misread him from the start. I think he’s always been a jerk, but there was a time where he was a more “lovable” jerk if that makes sense.

[Dr. Medulla]

One of the sad things about Morrissey is that his music has meant so much to so many people. It definitely meant something to me as an awkward teenager. It's been very sad to see him reveal himself as an absolute troll.

Yeah, it stung to find out that, no, he wasn't an advocate for tolerance and acceptance of all kinds of weirdos and outcasts, as so many of us thought. He had a much narrower slice in mind and regarded others with real malice. Of course, there's nothing stopping us from continuing to regard those songs as being about acceptance, but he's such a forceful presence and the work so personal that it's hard to detach the two. A shame that the rest of the band gets dragged down a bit in the process.

You definitely saw flashes of it back in those days, with him calling reggae racist and so on. In retrospect a lot of what he and Lydon have “become” seems fairly obvious. In retrospect. In retrospect.

That's the thing. You ask yourself whether they've changed or you misread them from the start. And it's hard not to conclude that I/we misread them, projecting what I/we wanted.

I think in Morrissey’s case, I misread him from the start. I think he’s always been a jerk, but there was a time where he was a more “lovable” jerk if that makes sense.

I think it was my misreading in Morrissey's case, while there was some shift with Lydon (but not as much as I'd like to have believed).

[oliver]

I'm really feeling something about the passing of Andy Rourke.

I had an older cousin who was my musical gateway when I was younger. He helped me get into music I never would have been exposed to as a kid in Wisconsin in the days before Spotify and Tidal and YouTube.

I learned the band names before I heard the music: from the t-shirts he wore to the posters he hung on his walls to the meticulously organized cassettes and LPs he had in his basement.

Around the time I turned 12, I started asking about the music and he obliged by making me mix tape after mix tape or dubbing entire albums from his collection.

He was a huge fan of The Smiths.

The first Smiths-related music I owned was a cutout copy of Bona Drag on cassette that I found at a local record shop. I played it to death because I loved it so much and from that point on it was all out on trying to find as much as I could and my cousin was all too happy to dub copies of his Smiths LPs.

We spent a lot of time listening to and talking about the music. We laughed about how crazy Morrissey was (little did we know). We marveled at Johnny's guitar playing or Mike Joyce's thundering drums. Andy Rourke was always a favorite topic because as I mentioned earlier, his bass playing was so unique and instrumental to their overall sound. The Smiths would not have sounded like The Smiths without him. Andy Rourke's bass playing was as important as Johnny Marr's guitar.

The Smiths were important to me. I'm sure many (if not all of you) can relate, but when I was an adolescent trying to figure out who I was, music was (to borrow a term from Morrissey) the "rubber ring" that kept me afloat.

I think one reason I cling to Morrissey's solo work is that there is always hope in the back of my mind that it will recreate the rush I felt the first time I heard The Smiths. It never does, but to borrow a bit more from Morrissey, "still I cling".

We lost my cousin unexpectedly a few years back. I miss talking about music with him. It's one of the reasons I enjoy hanging out here so much.

The Smiths have not been a going concern since 1987 and while there was not hint of a reunion ever, I felt something profound on hearing about Andy Rourke's death. His loss is not personal to me in the sense that I did not know him, but I knew him through the music he gave to the world.

Yep - I totally identify with this. My gateway to The Smiths was my older sister and her dubbed cassette of Hatful of Hollow.

[Marky Dread]

I don't feel cheated by Morrissey or lesser so by Lydon.

Good music is good music. People change all the time politics, values attitudes. Why should musicians be any different.

If you buy into the anti monarchy stuff or the anarchy of teenage rebellion then fair enough.

God Save the Queen and The Queen Is Dead are fantastic rock n roll records. Put those lyrics to lesser tunes and they soon become diminished.

The racism that both Morrissey and Lydon have adopted is just sad. But what they are now doesn't have to reflect on what they were then.

Enjoy the Sex Pistols and The Smiths they were bands not solo artists.

[Dr. Medulla]

My buddy Will is an entertainment writer with a Substack thingee. He did a list of non-Smiths Andy Rourke songs worth hearing: https://archive.ph/XSGKy

[Dr. Medulla]

https://www.vulture.com/2023/05/andy-ro ... rance.html

[oliver]

https://www.vulture.com/2023/05/andy-ro ... rance.html

I enjoyed the read but I'm not sure I agree with this bit:

When the guitarist got sick of the bickering in 1987, there was no one to mediate, just like there was no one pulling for fair contracts for the members who were shocked upon finally seeing the band’s accounting

In court, Morrissey and Marr produced a number of documents showing them as having signed any/all contracts and often them being witnessed by Mike Joyce. His defence was that he didn't understand what he was signing. Also, Andy was friends with Johnny since school days, I find it a little hard to accept that he didn't know the deal either.

I don't mean to say I think 40/40/10/10 was right because my idealized view is them all living in a house together like The Monkees and being BFFs but I do think it's more likely they were aware of the situation than not.

As an aside, shouldn't it have gone 20/20/20/20/20 when Craig Gannon joined if the deal was an equal split?

[Dr. Medulla]

https://www.vulture.com/2023/05/andy-ro ... rance.html

I enjoyed the read but I'm not sure I agree with this bit:

When the guitarist got sick of the bickering in 1987, there was no one to mediate, just like there was no one pulling for fair contracts for the members who were shocked upon finally seeing the band’s accounting

In court, Morrissey and Marr produced a number of documents showing them as having signed any/all contracts and often them being witnessed by Mike Joyce. His defence was that he didn't understand what he was signing. Also, Andy was friends with Johnny since school days, I find it a little hard to accept that he didn't know the deal either.

I don't mean to say I think 40/40/10/10 was right because my idealized view is them all living in a house together like The Monkees and being BFFs but I do think it's more likely they were aware of the situation than not.

I agree. The split was unjust, but I can't believe that it took years and years for the rhythm section to discover this. More likely knowing that as long as the band is rolling they could hold their tongue (to be a good team player, fear of being replaced), but once it was over, self-interest manifests in a different way.

As an aside, shouldn't it have gone 20/20/20/20/20 when Craig Gannon joined if the deal was an equal split?

It's not a widely acknowledged principle, but the world rejects the idea of people named Craig getting an equal cut of anything.

[Marky Dread]

https://www.vulture.com/2023/05/andy-ro ... rance.html

I enjoyed the read but I'm not sure I agree with this bit:

When the guitarist got sick of the bickering in 1987, there was no one to mediate, just like there was no one pulling for fair contracts for the members who were shocked upon finally seeing the band’s accounting

In court, Morrissey and Marr produced a number of documents showing them as having signed any/all contracts and often them being witnessed by Mike Joyce. His defence was that he didn't understand what he was signing. Also, Andy was friends with Johnny since school days, I find it a little hard to accept that he didn't know the deal either.

I don't mean to say I think 40/40/10/10 was right because my idealized view is them all living in a house together like The Monkees and being BFFs but I do think it's more likely they were aware of the situation than not.

I agree. The split was unjust, but I can't believe that it took years and years for the rhythm section to discover this. More likely knowing that as long as the band is rolling they could hold their tongue (to be a good team player, fear of being replaced), but once it was over, self-interest manifests in a different way.

As an aside, shouldn't it have gone 20/20/20/20/20 when Craig Gannon joined if the deal was an equal split?

It's not a widely acknowledged principle, but the world rejects the idea of people named Craig getting an equal cut of anything.

Dr. Medulla goes into full on Brosette mode.

[Dr. Medulla]

https://www.vulture.com/2023/05/andy-ro ... rance.html

I enjoyed the read but I'm not sure I agree with this bit:

When the guitarist got sick of the bickering in 1987, there was no one to mediate, just like there was no one pulling for fair contracts for the members who were shocked upon finally seeing the band’s accounting

In court, Morrissey and Marr produced a number of documents showing them as having signed any/all contracts and often them being witnessed by Mike Joyce. His defence was that he didn't understand what he was signing. Also, Andy was friends with Johnny since school days, I find it a little hard to accept that he didn't know the deal either.

I don't mean to say I think 40/40/10/10 was right because my idealized view is them all living in a house together like The Monkees and being BFFs but I do think it's more likely they were aware of the situation than not.

I agree. The split was unjust, but I can't believe that it took years and years for the rhythm section to discover this. More likely knowing that as long as the band is rolling they could hold their tongue (to be a good team player, fear of being replaced), but once it was over, self-interest manifests in a different way.

As an aside, shouldn't it have gone 20/20/20/20/20 when Craig Gannon joined if the deal was an equal split?

It's not a widely acknowledged principle, but the world rejects the idea of people named Craig getting an equal cut of anything.

Dr. Medulla goes into full on Brosette mode.

Have I been insulted or complimented? I have a horrible feeling it's the former.

[Marky Dread]

https://www.vulture.com/2023/05/andy-ro ... rance.html

I enjoyed the read but I'm not sure I agree with this bit:

When the guitarist got sick of the bickering in 1987, there was no one to mediate, just like there was no one pulling for fair contracts for the members who were shocked upon finally seeing the band’s accounting

In court, Morrissey and Marr produced a number of documents showing them as having signed any/all contracts and often them being witnessed by Mike Joyce. His defence was that he didn't understand what he was signing. Also, Andy was friends with Johnny since school days, I find it a little hard to accept that he didn't know the deal either.

I don't mean to say I think 40/40/10/10 was right because my idealized view is them all living in a house together like The Monkees and being BFFs but I do think it's more likely they were aware of the situation than not.

I agree. The split was unjust, but I can't believe that it took years and years for the rhythm section to discover this. More likely knowing that as long as the band is rolling they could hold their tongue (to be a good team player, fear of being replaced), but once it was over, self-interest manifests in a different way.

As an aside, shouldn't it have gone 20/20/20/20/20 when Craig Gannon joined if the deal was an equal split?

It's not a widely acknowledged principle, but the world rejects the idea of people named Craig getting an equal cut of anything.

Dr. Medulla goes into full on Brosette mode.

Have I been insulted or complimented? I have a horrible feeling it's the former.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Craig_Logan