But, just to extend the conversation, how do we know it was trend chasing as opposed to curiosity (what would it sound like if we took an old song and applied it to this approach?)? Are we more tolerant when it's a "sincere" attempt that fails? That is, do we care mostly about "what's in their heart" rather than the results?
Surely it must be down to the execution and what actually works.
I dunno. Anecdotally, I'd say we tend to judge more harshly records that we think are made as cash-ins rather than those that are more sincere flops, even if the results are equally craptastic. We aren't wholly invested in aesthetics, but do apply some politics or sociology or psychology to it all.
There were an awful lot of bands that were accused of jumping on the punk bandwagon that made some fantastic records. Personally I couldn't care less if someone is cashing in on the latest trend as long as the song is good. Plastic Bertrand springs instantly to mind.
But we're talking about shitty records here. Are we more forgiving of shitty records that were made for sincere reasons?
Depends who's making the record and just what they are capable of. And how we are defining "shitty records".
Example "Goodbye Cruel World" by Elvis Costello is a "shitty record" by his standards.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
Surely it must be down to the execution and what actually works.
I dunno. Anecdotally, I'd say we tend to judge more harshly records that we think are made as cash-ins rather than those that are more sincere flops, even if the results are equally craptastic. We aren't wholly invested in aesthetics, but do apply some politics or sociology or psychology to it all.
There were an awful lot of bands that were accused of jumping on the punk bandwagon that made some fantastic records. Personally I couldn't care less if someone is cashing in on the latest trend as long as the song is good. Plastic Bertrand springs instantly to mind.
But we're talking about shitty records here. Are we more forgiving of shitty records that were made for sincere reasons?
Depends who's making the record and just what they are capable of. And how we are defining "shitty records".
Example "Goodbye Cruel World" by Elvis Costello is a "shitty record" by his standards.
Well, this grew from Flex's comment about the Beach Boys doing a disco version of "Here Comes the Night." So go with that.
"Grab some wood, bub.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
I dunno. Anecdotally, I'd say we tend to judge more harshly records that we think are made as cash-ins rather than those that are more sincere flops, even if the results are equally craptastic. We aren't wholly invested in aesthetics, but do apply some politics or sociology or psychology to it all.
There were an awful lot of bands that were accused of jumping on the punk bandwagon that made some fantastic records. Personally I couldn't care less if someone is cashing in on the latest trend as long as the song is good. Plastic Bertrand springs instantly to mind.
But we're talking about shitty records here. Are we more forgiving of shitty records that were made for sincere reasons?
Depends who's making the record and just what they are capable of. And how we are defining "shitty records".
Example "Goodbye Cruel World" by Elvis Costello is a "shitty record" by his standards.
Well, this grew from Flex's comment about the Beach Boys doing a disco version of "Here Comes the Night." So go with that.
Well I would but you keep shifting the parameters. If the question is did the Beach Boys make a shitty record that was also a cash-in then I would say yes they did. Age has to play a part here. If they were young guns starting out and made a decent stab at a disco track then fair enough. But as they are well trodden song smiths then the expectancy has to be higher.
Is the record any good? No idea as I haven't heard it but do I expect it to be any good? No I don't. The Beach Boys and The Fat Boys doing "Wipe Out" was awful.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
There were an awful lot of bands that were accused of jumping on the punk bandwagon that made some fantastic records. Personally I couldn't care less if someone is cashing in on the latest trend as long as the song is good. Plastic Bertrand springs instantly to mind.
But we're talking about shitty records here. Are we more forgiving of shitty records that were made for sincere reasons?
Depends who's making the record and just what they are capable of. And how we are defining "shitty records".
Example "Goodbye Cruel World" by Elvis Costello is a "shitty record" by his standards.
Well, this grew from Flex's comment about the Beach Boys doing a disco version of "Here Comes the Night." So go with that.
Well I would but you keep shifting the parameters. If the question is did the Beach Boys make a shitty record that was also a cash-in then I would say yes they did. Age has to play a part here. If they were young guns starting out and made a decent stab at a disco track then fair enough. But as they are well trodden song smiths then the expectancy has to be higher.
Is the record any good? No idea as I haven't heard it but do I expect it to be any good? No I don't. The Beach Boys and The Fat Boys doing "Wipe Out" was awful.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.
But we're talking about shitty records here. Are we more forgiving of shitty records that were made for sincere reasons?
Depends who's making the record and just what they are capable of. And how we are defining "shitty records".
Example "Goodbye Cruel World" by Elvis Costello is a "shitty record" by his standards.
Well, this grew from Flex's comment about the Beach Boys doing a disco version of "Here Comes the Night." So go with that.
Well I would but you keep shifting the parameters. If the question is did the Beach Boys make a shitty record that was also a cash-in then I would say yes they did. Age has to play a part here. If they were young guns starting out and made a decent stab at a disco track then fair enough. But as they are well trodden song smiths then the expectancy has to be higher.
Is the record any good? No idea as I haven't heard it but do I expect it to be any good? No I don't. The Beach Boys and The Fat Boys doing "Wipe Out" was awful.
I'm sorry but that track is seriously crap. No way you can defend the awfulness of that even in a kitschy kinda fun way. Everything about it sucks from the harmonies to the production. Dreadful.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
There were an awful lot of bands that were accused of jumping on the punk bandwagon that made some fantastic records. Personally I couldn't care less if someone is cashing in on the latest trend as long as the song is good. Plastic Bertrand springs instantly to mind.
But we're talking about shitty records here. Are we more forgiving of shitty records that were made for sincere reasons?
Depends who's making the record and just what they are capable of. And how we are defining "shitty records".
Example "Goodbye Cruel World" by Elvis Costello is a "shitty record" by his standards.
Well, this grew from Flex's comment about the Beach Boys doing a disco version of "Here Comes the Night." So go with that.
Well I would but you keep shifting the parameters. If the question is did the Beach Boys make a shitty record that was also a cash-in then I would say yes they did. Age has to play a part here. If they were young guns starting out and made a decent stab at a disco track then fair enough. But as they are well trodden song smiths then the expectancy has to be higher.
Is the record any good? No idea as I haven't heard it but do I expect it to be any good? No I don't. The Beach Boys and The Fat Boys doing "Wipe Out" was awful.
I've shifted no parameters. Everything I've said has been guided by my original question, which came from Flex's comment about trend-chasing and the Beach Boys. My question was, and still is, about whether motivations affect how we regard crappy records where a band goes out of its comfort zone. Are we more critical or less forgiving if we think an artist was bandwagon jumping as opposed to genuinely curious but, nope, it just didn't work? Or do we not care about rationale, only results?
"Grab some wood, bub.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
Depends who's making the record and just what they are capable of. And how we are defining "shitty records".
Example "Goodbye Cruel World" by Elvis Costello is a "shitty record" by his standards.
Well, this grew from Flex's comment about the Beach Boys doing a disco version of "Here Comes the Night." So go with that.
Well I would but you keep shifting the parameters. If the question is did the Beach Boys make a shitty record that was also a cash-in then I would say yes they did. Age has to play a part here. If they were young guns starting out and made a decent stab at a disco track then fair enough. But as they are well trodden song smiths then the expectancy has to be higher.
Is the record any good? No idea as I haven't heard it but do I expect it to be any good? No I don't. The Beach Boys and The Fat Boys doing "Wipe Out" was awful.
I'm sorry but that track is seriously crap. No way you can defend the awfulness of that even in a kitschy kinda fun way. Everything about it sucks from the harmonies to the production. Dreadful.
It's the Fat Boys yelling at me for four minutes. It's great.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.
But we're talking about shitty records here. Are we more forgiving of shitty records that were made for sincere reasons?
Depends who's making the record and just what they are capable of. And how we are defining "shitty records".
Example "Goodbye Cruel World" by Elvis Costello is a "shitty record" by his standards.
Well, this grew from Flex's comment about the Beach Boys doing a disco version of "Here Comes the Night." So go with that.
Well I would but you keep shifting the parameters. If the question is did the Beach Boys make a shitty record that was also a cash-in then I would say yes they did. Age has to play a part here. If they were young guns starting out and made a decent stab at a disco track then fair enough. But as they are well trodden song smiths then the expectancy has to be higher.
Is the record any good? No idea as I haven't heard it but do I expect it to be any good? No I don't. The Beach Boys and The Fat Boys doing "Wipe Out" was awful.
I've shifted no parameters. Everything I've said has been guided by my original question, which came from Flex's comment about trend-chasing and the Beach Boys. My question was, and still is, about whether motivations affect how we regard crappy records where a band goes out of its comfort zone. Are we more critical or less forgiving if we think an artist was bandwagon jumping as opposed to genuinely curious but, nope, it just didn't work? Or do we not care about rationale, only results?
Well I can't answer a question that asks "do we" because that's for others to decide how they feel about it.
For me personally then if something is done in either a sincere or just simply fun way to try something new then what counts are the results. Something like Strawberry Switchblade covering "Joelene" looks like it shouldn't work yet it's fantastic. So I personally say throw the rationale out of the window and be brave and try whatever the hell you like. If an artist is cashing in on the latest trend I don't care as long as the song is good. I'm sure the Pistols and Ramones influenced loads of bands to play 3 chords and power chords and some of those bands that may have seemed like pale imitations at the time made some great songs.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
Well, this grew from Flex's comment about the Beach Boys doing a disco version of "Here Comes the Night." So go with that.
Well I would but you keep shifting the parameters. If the question is did the Beach Boys make a shitty record that was also a cash-in then I would say yes they did. Age has to play a part here. If they were young guns starting out and made a decent stab at a disco track then fair enough. But as they are well trodden song smiths then the expectancy has to be higher.
Is the record any good? No idea as I haven't heard it but do I expect it to be any good? No I don't. The Beach Boys and The Fat Boys doing "Wipe Out" was awful.
I'm sorry but that track is seriously crap. No way you can defend the awfulness of that even in a kitschy kinda fun way. Everything about it sucks from the harmonies to the production. Dreadful.
It's the Fat Boys yelling at me for four minutes. It's great.
If that's your bag then it's all good.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
Depends who's making the record and just what they are capable of. And how we are defining "shitty records".
Example "Goodbye Cruel World" by Elvis Costello is a "shitty record" by his standards.
Well, this grew from Flex's comment about the Beach Boys doing a disco version of "Here Comes the Night." So go with that.
Well I would but you keep shifting the parameters. If the question is did the Beach Boys make a shitty record that was also a cash-in then I would say yes they did. Age has to play a part here. If they were young guns starting out and made a decent stab at a disco track then fair enough. But as they are well trodden song smiths then the expectancy has to be higher.
Is the record any good? No idea as I haven't heard it but do I expect it to be any good? No I don't. The Beach Boys and The Fat Boys doing "Wipe Out" was awful.
I've shifted no parameters. Everything I've said has been guided by my original question, which came from Flex's comment about trend-chasing and the Beach Boys. My question was, and still is, about whether motivations affect how we regard crappy records where a band goes out of its comfort zone. Are we more critical or less forgiving if we think an artist was bandwagon jumping as opposed to genuinely curious but, nope, it just didn't work? Or do we not care about rationale, only results?
Well I can't answer a question that asks "do we" because that's for others to decide how they feel about it.
C'mon, man, don't get snarky. We as in the people of this community, anyone who wants to participate.
For me personally then if something is done in either a sincere or just simply fun way to try something new then what counts are the results. Something like Strawberry Switchblade covering "Joelene" looks like it shouldn't work yet it's fantastic. So I personally say throw the rationale out of the window and be brave and try whatever the hell you like. If an artist is cashing in on the latest trend I don't care as long as the song is good. I'm sure the Pistols and Ramones influenced loads of bands to play 3 chords and power chords and some of those bands that may have seemed like pale imitations at the time made some great songs.
And, again, this is an easy question when we like the results, so that's not what I was asking. You have to be a seriously dogmatic grump to like the results but still dismiss the song because it's done for the wrong reasons.
"Grab some wood, bub.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
Well, this grew from Flex's comment about the Beach Boys doing a disco version of "Here Comes the Night." So go with that.
Well I would but you keep shifting the parameters. If the question is did the Beach Boys make a shitty record that was also a cash-in then I would say yes they did. Age has to play a part here. If they were young guns starting out and made a decent stab at a disco track then fair enough. But as they are well trodden song smiths then the expectancy has to be higher.
Is the record any good? No idea as I haven't heard it but do I expect it to be any good? No I don't. The Beach Boys and The Fat Boys doing "Wipe Out" was awful.
I've shifted no parameters. Everything I've said has been guided by my original question, which came from Flex's comment about trend-chasing and the Beach Boys. My question was, and still is, about whether motivations affect how we regard crappy records where a band goes out of its comfort zone. Are we more critical or less forgiving if we think an artist was bandwagon jumping as opposed to genuinely curious but, nope, it just didn't work? Or do we not care about rationale, only results?
Well I can't answer a question that asks "do we" because that's for others to decide how they feel about it.
C'mon, man, don't get snarky. We as in the people of this community, anyone who wants to participate.
For me personally then if something is done in either a sincere or just simply fun way to try something new then what counts are the results. Something like Strawberry Switchblade covering "Joelene" looks like it shouldn't work yet it's fantastic. So I personally say throw the rationale out of the window and be brave and try whatever the hell you like. If an artist is cashing in on the latest trend I don't care as long as the song is good. I'm sure the Pistols and Ramones influenced loads of bands to play 3 chords and power chords and some of those bands that may have seemed like pale imitations at the time made some great songs.
And, again, this is an easy question when we like the results, so that's not what I was asking. You have to be a seriously dogmatic grump to like the results but still dismiss the song because it's done for the wrong reasons.
There's no snark intended at all.
Well I really don't see that it matters. If you like the results of an artist that has tried something new then great. But if that artist tries something and it's not to your liking then the choice is simple wait for the next record and see if you like it or move onto to another artist.
Would I be forgiving if an artist makes Metal Box one minute then goes onto make TWIN? Yes definitely because they still made Metal Box and that has to be judged as a separate piece of art. Would I feel it's a shame that they don't make art that good anymore? Yeah probably but then it's a hard act to follow so the artist gets cut some slack. I think it's way easier these days as there are a ton of platforms on which to hear what that artist is currently up to. Back in the day when it was just vinyl or tape then it was a big commitment to trust in an artist. From The Clash to Sandinista! is a huge musical step. And buying vinyl even at a decent discount price was still a big risk. Reading the reviews would rarely help either. But in making a commitment to buy Sandinista! It made me intrigued to play this strange record which I grew to love more and more over time. It's as an important a record as many others I treasure. So in the case of S! being different styles to other Clash records it works brilliantly.
But it's one of those things where you have to believe the artist can do something good that holds your attention. Let's say the Ramones completely tried a non punk record and went country, would it work as merely a novelty or would I return to it? Tricky one that as the Ramones have that formula that works well for them.
Costello released "Almost Blue" which was a big change of style at the time for him covering country tracks. And that's another album that I really enjoy. But there are some Jazz things etc that he's done latter in his career that are not my thing. Yet I still await his next release because he's such a capable artist.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
Okay, you seem to be someone who judges results alone, regardless of motivation … tho perhaps there's still some ambiguity or wiggle room as your examples aren't of artists who were bandwagon jumpers. We need to bring in Heston to assess "I Was Made For Lovin' You."
"Grab some wood, bub.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
Okay, you seem to be someone who judges results alone, regardless of motivation … tho perhaps there's still some ambiguity or wiggle room as your examples aren't of artists who were bandwagon jumpers. We need to bring in Heston to assess "I Was Made For Lovin' You."
Yeah, a lot of Costello’s jumps were frankly non-commercial moves. He certainly would’ve sold a lot more over the years if he revisited This Year’s Model style material at key moments. His missteps come off as being in over his head stylistically but being sincere about trying it.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson
I think if a band seems to just dive into the new hotness at the moment it’s at the peak of the zeitgeist it gets suspect. A rock band in 1977-78 that didn’t even delve into funk/gamble and huff style Philly soul before that point probably could be expected to be tourists looking for a quick buck.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson
Okay, you seem to be someone who judges results alone, regardless of motivation … tho perhaps there's still some ambiguity or wiggle room as your examples aren't of artists who were bandwagon jumpers. We need to bring in Heston to assess "I Was Made For Lovin' You."
Yeah, a lot of Costello’s jumps were frankly non-commercial moves. He certainly would’ve sold a lot more over the years if he revisited This Year’s Model style material at key moments. His missteps come off as being in over his head stylistically but being sincere about trying it.
So, for you, sincerity counts a lot?
I'm kinda pushing this inquiry, I think, because it speaks to what we're consuming—experiences, values, both? And does it change depending on genres or where we're at in our lives?
"Grab some wood, bub.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
