If Music Could Talk

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 5:04pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:49pm

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:46pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:35pm

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:21pm

I get that with the singles chart but for a band to be financially viable they have to shift some units. The fact that all of XTC except Andy had to take "normal" jobs outside of the band is a bit sad really. I would never expect them to shift U2-style units, but that is a poor showing for one of (imo) the UK's greatest ever bands.

Except that living off record sales alone is mostly a no-go because of how massively imbalanced the record industry was/is in terms of who gets the money. Most bands generate their real income from touring and, if they're lucky, licensing, which, well, was ruled out before long with XTC.

I've read that most bands didn't make much money from touring back in the day, it was all about the record sales. They were prepared to take a loss on touring to publicize their latest record. It's obviously the opposite now...

Nope, the inverse. A bit dated (but appropriate to the time period we're talking about), but Steve Albini's rant is still worth a read: https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-problem-with-music

That does seem a bit of a cynical rant and I'm not sure of how totally true it is, no two bands will be in the same situation. I have read of load of instances of bands making losses on tour. A lot even charged support bands to play, such were the frugal returns for the main act.

Other analyses I've read largely support what Albini was saying. It's not like touring was a guaranteed windfall, but there was a greater share of more potential income than in sales. For most bands, it's just wretched.

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 5:14pm

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 5:04pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:49pm

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:46pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:35pm

Except that living off record sales alone is mostly a no-go because of how massively imbalanced the record industry was/is in terms of who gets the money. Most bands generate their real income from touring and, if they're lucky, licensing, which, well, was ruled out before long with XTC.

I've read that most bands didn't make much money from touring back in the day, it was all about the record sales. They were prepared to take a loss on touring to publicize their latest record. It's obviously the opposite now...

Nope, the inverse. A bit dated (but appropriate to the time period we're talking about), but Steve Albini's rant is still worth a read: https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-problem-with-music

That does seem a bit of a cynical rant and I'm not sure of how totally true it is, no two bands will be in the same situation. I have read of load of instances of bands making losses on tour. A lot even charged support bands to play, such were the frugal returns for the main act.

Other analyses I've read largely support what Albini was saying. It's not like touring was a guaranteed windfall, but there was a greater share of more potential income than in sales. For most bands, it's just wretched.

Maybe there's a US/UK divide going on, North America is a larger territory and the pickings might be richer. But yeah, it's shame so many bands are ripped off, the musical landscape could be so much different if bands had been treat properly back in the day.

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 5:19pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 5:14pm

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 5:04pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:49pm

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:46pm

I've read that most bands didn't make much money from touring back in the day, it was all about the record sales. They were prepared to take a loss on touring to publicize their latest record. It's obviously the opposite now...

Nope, the inverse. A bit dated (but appropriate to the time period we're talking about), but Steve Albini's rant is still worth a read: https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-problem-with-music

That does seem a bit of a cynical rant and I'm not sure of how totally true it is, no two bands will be in the same situation. I have read of load of instances of bands making losses on tour. A lot even charged support bands to play, such were the frugal returns for the main act.

Other analyses I've read largely support what Albini was saying. It's not like touring was a guaranteed windfall, but there was a greater share of more potential income than in sales. For most bands, it's just wretched.

Maybe there's a US/UK divide going on, North America is a larger territory and the pickings might be richer. But yeah, it's shame so many bands are ripped off, the musical landscape could be so much different if bands had been treat properly back in the day.

That's another big factor—the geographical size and, related, the degree of centralization in the UK. One of my favourite bits of underlying rock stories is about why UK bands succeeded in the US in the early 80s on a level not seen since Beatlemania. Because of the BBC's tight control over the radio, bands had to be more creative to get exposure, so music videos developed sooner than in the US. The American radio market was a lot more open, more regional, so bands had a greater chance of sneaking in. When MTV started up, there weren't many videos available and most were from the UK. And even after that, the UK had more budgetary momentum for making videos compared to the US. So Duran Duran's breakout in America is in no small part due to the respective nature of each nation's radio stations.

I remember hearing from a member of Man Or Astroman around 1999 that the biggest income generator for them was selling merch on tour.

Wolter wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 6:24pm

I remember hearing from a member of Man Or Astroman around 1999 that the biggest income generator for them was selling merch on tour.

Yup. The profit margin on merch is easily greater than any other aspect. If you want to support those indie bands, kids, buy the tour shirt. Things may have changed now with stuff like Bandcamp, but for the vast majority of bands, pre-internet, the records almost acted as loss leaders. Indentured slavery is only a slight exaggeration to describe the standard contract.

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:46pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:35pm

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:21pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:17pm

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 3:49pm

Unbelievable but XTC's 7 albums after English Settlement spent a grand total of 15 weeks on the UK chart, none getting higher than 28. Skylarking incredibly only got to number 90. They have to be the most under appreciated band the UK has ever produced.

Reason #67 glabzillion to ignore the charts as indicative of anything meaningful. Or, at least, that something not charting says nothing whatsoever about quality.

I get that with the singles chart but for a band to be financially viable they have to shift some units. The fact that all of XTC except Andy had to take "normal" jobs outside of the band is a bit sad really. I would never expect them to shift U2-style units, but that is a poor showing for one of (imo) the UK's greatest ever bands.

Except that living off record sales alone is mostly a no-go because of how massively imbalanced the record industry was/is in terms of who gets the money. Most bands generate their real income from touring and, if they're lucky, licensing, which, well, was ruled out before long with XTC.

I've read that most bands didn't make much money from touring back in the day, it was all about the record sales. They were prepared to take a loss on touring to publicize their latest record. It's obviously the opposite now...

You are correct and is why they often flogged their own T shirts and boots outside the gigs.

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 5:04pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:49pm

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:46pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:35pm

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:21pm

I get that with the singles chart but for a band to be financially viable they have to shift some units. The fact that all of XTC except Andy had to take "normal" jobs outside of the band is a bit sad really. I would never expect them to shift U2-style units, but that is a poor showing for one of (imo) the UK's greatest ever bands.

Except that living off record sales alone is mostly a no-go because of how massively imbalanced the record industry was/is in terms of who gets the money. Most bands generate their real income from touring and, if they're lucky, licensing, which, well, was ruled out before long with XTC.

I've read that most bands didn't make much money from touring back in the day, it was all about the record sales. They were prepared to take a loss on touring to publicize their latest record. It's obviously the opposite now...

Nope, the inverse. A bit dated (but appropriate to the time period we're talking about), but Steve Albini's rant is still worth a read: https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-problem-with-music

That does seem a bit of a cynical rant and I'm not sure of how totally true it is, no two bands will be in the same situation. I have read of load of instances of bands making losses on tour. A lot even charged support bands to play, such were the frugal returns for the main act.

Yes plenty of bands made a loss at the touring game. No band has the same contract with their respective record companies. Some were losing money on equiptment hire alone. Obviously once Andy got stage fright that route was forever closed off to the band anyway.

Marky Dread wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2019, 3:52am

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 5:04pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:49pm

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:46pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:35pm

Except that living off record sales alone is mostly a no-go because of how massively imbalanced the record industry was/is in terms of who gets the money. Most bands generate their real income from touring and, if they're lucky, licensing, which, well, was ruled out before long with XTC.

I've read that most bands didn't make much money from touring back in the day, it was all about the record sales. They were prepared to take a loss on touring to publicize their latest record. It's obviously the opposite now...

Nope, the inverse. A bit dated (but appropriate to the time period we're talking about), but Steve Albini's rant is still worth a read: https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-problem-with-music

That does seem a bit of a cynical rant and I'm not sure of how totally true it is, no two bands will be in the same situation. I have read of load of instances of bands making losses on tour. A lot even charged support bands to play, such were the frugal returns for the main act.

Yes plenty of bands made a loss at the touring game. No band has the same contract with their respective record companies. Some were losing money on equiptment hire alone. Obviously once Andy got stage fright that route was forever closed off to the band anyway.

I imagine most bands in that situation only made money on tour through merch sales.

JoseUnidos wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2019, 9:18am

Marky Dread wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2019, 3:52am

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 5:04pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:49pm

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:46pm

I've read that most bands didn't make much money from touring back in the day, it was all about the record sales. They were prepared to take a loss on touring to publicize their latest record. It's obviously the opposite now...

Nope, the inverse. A bit dated (but appropriate to the time period we're talking about), but Steve Albini's rant is still worth a read: https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-problem-with-music

That does seem a bit of a cynical rant and I'm not sure of how totally true it is, no two bands will be in the same situation. I have read of load of instances of bands making losses on tour. A lot even charged support bands to play, such were the frugal returns for the main act.

Yes plenty of bands made a loss at the touring game. No band has the same contract with their respective record companies. Some were losing money on equiptment hire alone. Obviously once Andy got stage fright that route was forever closed off to the band anyway.

I imagine most bands in that situation only made money on tour through merch sales.

Probably more true with bands nowadays but back in the 70s merch sales were much smaller. I remember seeing bands where they had just the one t shirt design and a programme on sales. These days bands have loads of designs to sell.

Marky Dread wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2019, 12:56pm

JoseUnidos wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2019, 9:18am

Marky Dread wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2019, 3:52am

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 5:04pm

Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 4:49pm

Nope, the inverse. A bit dated (but appropriate to the time period we're talking about), but Steve Albini's rant is still worth a read: https://thebaffler.com/salvos/the-problem-with-music

That does seem a bit of a cynical rant and I'm not sure of how totally true it is, no two bands will be in the same situation. I have read of load of instances of bands making losses on tour. A lot even charged support bands to play, such were the frugal returns for the main act.

Yes plenty of bands made a loss at the touring game. No band has the same contract with their respective record companies. Some were losing money on equiptment hire alone. Obviously once Andy got stage fright that route was forever closed off to the band anyway.

I imagine most bands in that situation only made money on tour through merch sales.

Probably more true with bands nowadays but back in the 70s merch sales were much smaller. I remember seeing bands where they had just the one t shirt design and a programme on sales. These days bands have loads of designs to sell.

Yes but do the bands still own them or is it part of the corporate package?

101Walterton wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2019, 5:16pm

Marky Dread wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2019, 12:56pm

JoseUnidos wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2019, 9:18am

Marky Dread wrote: ↑

12 Jul 2019, 3:52am

Heston wrote: ↑

11 Jul 2019, 5:04pm

That does seem a bit of a cynical rant and I'm not sure of how totally true it is, no two bands will be in the same situation. I have read of load of instances of bands making losses on tour. A lot even charged support bands to play, such were the frugal returns for the main act.

Yes plenty of bands made a loss at the touring game. No band has the same contract with their respective record companies. Some were losing money on equiptment hire alone. Obviously once Andy got stage fright that route was forever closed off to the band anyway.

I imagine most bands in that situation only made money on tour through merch sales.

Probably more true with bands nowadays but back in the 70s merch sales were much smaller. I remember seeing bands where they had just the one t shirt design and a programme on sales. These days bands have loads of designs to sell.

Yes but do the bands still own them or is it part of the corporate package?

Who knows regards the bigger acts. But most of the group's I see like most of the old punk bands (Wire) have their own merch set up. Where they do as much trade online as at gigs.

Here's a question. How many good songs have you heard over a store's in house music system. I'm talking grocery and department stores not any store that is musically related in anyway.

I heard one of those awful recent Elton John songs last night and couldn't get out of the store fast enough.

the local hippie store will have some good music sometimes but employees are picking those. And the hardware store I go to usually has a local classic rock radio station playing and Ill catch CCR or something but I dont count that.

Usually its some Phil Collins, Billy JoeL kind of crap.

I think the best thing I ever heard was Maria by Blondie.

revbob wrote: ↑

02 Aug 2019, 10:20am

Here's a question. How many good songs have you heard over a store's in house music system. I'm talking grocery and department stores not any store that is musically related in anyway.

I heard one of those awful recent Elton John songs last night and couldn't get out of the store fast enough.

the local hippie store will have some good music sometimes but employees are picking those. And the hardware store I go to usually has a local classic rock radio station playing and Ill catch CCR or something but I dont count that.

Usually its some Phil Collins, Billy JoeL kind of crap.

I think the best thing I ever heard was Maria by Blondie.

Our local Whole Foods often plays “Dad Cool” band’s like the Clash, Devo, Blondie, Elvis Costello, etc.

Wolter wrote: ↑

02 Aug 2019, 10:32am

revbob wrote: ↑

02 Aug 2019, 10:20am

Here's a question. How many good songs have you heard over a store's in house music system. I'm talking grocery and department stores not any store that is musically related in anyway.

I heard one of those awful recent Elton John songs last night and couldn't get out of the store fast enough.

the local hippie store will have some good music sometimes but employees are picking those. And the hardware store I go to usually has a local classic rock radio station playing and Ill catch CCR or something but I dont count that.

Usually its some Phil Collins, Billy JoeL kind of crap.

I think the best thing I ever heard was Maria by Blondie.

Our local Whole Foods often plays “Dad Cool” band’s like the Clash, Devo, Blondie, Elvis Costello, etc.

So is that controlled by the local staff or is that their corporate thing? No Whole Foods in these parts. We have H(W)ealthy Living which is sort of a regional equivalent I think.

revbob wrote: ↑

02 Aug 2019, 10:20am

Here's a question. How many good songs have you heard over a store's in house music system. I'm talking grocery and department stores not any store that is musically related in anyway.

I heard one of those awful recent Elton John songs last night and couldn't get out of the store fast enough.

the local hippie store will have some good music sometimes but employees are picking those. And the hardware store I go to usually has a local classic rock radio station playing and Ill catch CCR or something but I dont count that.

Usually its some Phil Collins, Billy JoeL kind of crap.

I think the best thing I ever heard was Maria by Blondie.

My grocery store's soundtrack is a generic round-up of pop hits from the 80s. Phil Collins, Billy Joel, the Police, Rod Stewart. The range is appalling to tolerable. If I'm shopping solo, I'll often have my headphones with me to block it out.