Music opinion/question of the week...

General music discussion.
muppet hi fi
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by muppet hi fi » 29 May 2018, 6:38pm

Marky Dread wrote:
29 May 2018, 6:28pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
29 May 2018, 6:12pm
Wolter wrote:
29 May 2018, 6:06pm
I think the trick here is that there is the Slade/Sweet/T. Rex stomping glam sound and then there’s the artier, doomed romantic ones that also tend to get tied to it, like Bowie/Roxy/Steve Harley. The latter ones definitely share some DNA with BBD. I think of BBD as glam-tinged prog with hooks.
Does it make sense, then, to mostly sidestep sound when talking about glam and say that its distinctiveness is visual? Can you confidently tell a glam record if you didn't have access to the sleeve? I'm not all that knowledgeable about glam because what I've heard never super-grabbed me—don't dislike it, don't love it—but whenever it's invoked, my thought is primarily visual.
I think you mostly can be it all depending on which side of the Glam fence you find yourelf sitting. Glam rock is more than a visual thing. The pop side really focused on the 50's rock 'n' roll element in you can cram all you need in a great song under or around the 3 minutes required for radio. The artsier side that Wolt referred to earlier has no restrictions to sounding pop more than being off kilter with most other styles. People like Bowie went for both with acknowledging T. Rex and the Velvets.
Must not forget the Dolls, who were probably more responsible for the visual image in the UK more than anyone. Remember, until Bowie saw them in NYC in '72, he and Bolan were still locked into the hippie look/vibe, so I credit Bowie with bringing the glam look to the UK (and later the US, but by then it was a bandwagon-hopping thing).
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Dr. Medulla » 29 May 2018, 6:50pm

Marky Dread wrote:
29 May 2018, 6:28pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
29 May 2018, 6:12pm
Wolter wrote:
29 May 2018, 6:06pm
I think the trick here is that there is the Slade/Sweet/T. Rex stomping glam sound and then there’s the artier, doomed romantic ones that also tend to get tied to it, like Bowie/Roxy/Steve Harley. The latter ones definitely share some DNA with BBD. I think of BBD as glam-tinged prog with hooks.
Does it make sense, then, to mostly sidestep sound when talking about glam and say that its distinctiveness is visual? Can you confidently tell a glam record if you didn't have access to the sleeve? I'm not all that knowledgeable about glam because what I've heard never super-grabbed me—don't dislike it, don't love it—but whenever it's invoked, my thought is primarily visual.
I think you mostly can be it all depending on which side of the Glam fence you find yourelf sitting. Glam rock is more than a visual thing. The pop side really focused on the 50's rock 'n' roll element in you can cram all you need in a great song under or around the 3 minutes required for radio. The artsier side that Wolt referred to earlier has no restrictions to sounding pop more than being off kilter with most other styles. People like Bowie went for both with acknowledging T. Rex and the Velvets.
Yeah, that's what I have a hard time wrapping my head around (again, with only limited exposure). In terms of style, it seems to run the gamut from rock n roll revival to, say, arty Roxy Music. What unifies it as a genre, then? It seems like a more flamboyant, gender fluidity is the common element.
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Marky Dread » 29 May 2018, 7:15pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
29 May 2018, 6:50pm
Marky Dread wrote:
29 May 2018, 6:28pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
29 May 2018, 6:12pm
Wolter wrote:
29 May 2018, 6:06pm
I think the trick here is that there is the Slade/Sweet/T. Rex stomping glam sound and then there’s the artier, doomed romantic ones that also tend to get tied to it, like Bowie/Roxy/Steve Harley. The latter ones definitely share some DNA with BBD. I think of BBD as glam-tinged prog with hooks.
Does it make sense, then, to mostly sidestep sound when talking about glam and say that its distinctiveness is visual? Can you confidently tell a glam record if you didn't have access to the sleeve? I'm not all that knowledgeable about glam because what I've heard never super-grabbed me—don't dislike it, don't love it—but whenever it's invoked, my thought is primarily visual.
I think you mostly can be it all depending on which side of the Glam fence you find yourelf sitting. Glam rock is more than a visual thing. The pop side really focused on the 50's rock 'n' roll element in you can cram all you need in a great song under or around the 3 minutes required for radio. The artsier side that Wolt referred to earlier has no restrictions to sounding pop more than being off kilter with most other styles. People like Bowie went for both with acknowledging T. Rex and the Velvets.
Yeah, that's what I have a hard time wrapping my head around (again, with only limited exposure). In terms of style, it seems to run the gamut from rock n roll revival to, say, arty Roxy Music. What unifies it as a genre, then? It seems like a more flamboyant, gender fluidity is the common element.
Nothing really unifies it as a genre as such. If you say clothes then just like with punk you will fall wide of the mark. I suppose if you think of punk and post punk the glam scene is a very simillar idea with two distinct styles of music one moving within the pop culture and the other staring in from the outside throwing shit at it. I've said it over and over clothes don't make music. It's always a broad church but I think being a part of something new in a time and space is the key. When you play any style of music past it's era you will be labelled as retro. Seriously It's all rock n' roll to me with a new name attached to it. All great music stems back to something even bands like Wire needed to start somewhere to strip back from if you please.
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by eumaas » 29 May 2018, 7:24pm

Wittgenstein's family resemblances concept might be useful here. That's where you have overlapping similarities and resemblances but no feature common to all instances. So you might have say A and B in common between Band 1 and Band 2, but you might have nothing in common between Band 1 and Band 3, while Band 2 and Band 3 have X and Y in common. Yet all would count as iterations of glam because of the overall network of overlapping traits. Instead of seeking out the essence that unites all glam, you can just look for the traits held in common to greater or lesser degrees. That also means that you might have some bands that check off more boxes than others. So Roxy Music for example might check off the fashion box but be relatively distant as they had more of an avant-garde approach to the music.

(I use band name placeholders because I'm no expert at glam.)
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by eumaas » 29 May 2018, 7:27pm

This is also a question of degree. Some genres have a tighter grouping of traits than others. For example, dance music tends to have more rigid definitions, such that a track without the squelching TB-303 (or similar synth) sound doesn't count as acid house. Or something more familiar to the board, why not contrast New York punk and British punk? The former has a more heterogeneous sound than the latter. With NY punk the common traits seem to bear more on the social milieu of the music than its sound. British punk by contrast was more homogeneous in its first wave, though even there the family resemblances concept is handy to make sense of why some bands got included.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Marky Dread » 29 May 2018, 7:45pm

eumaas wrote:
29 May 2018, 7:27pm
This is also a question of degree. Some genres have a tighter grouping of traits than others. For example, dance music tends to have more rigid definitions, such that a track without the squelching TB-303 (or similar synth) sound doesn't count as acid house. Or something more familiar to the board, why not contrast New York punk and British punk? The former has a more heterogeneous sound than the latter. With NY punk the common traits seem to bear more on the social milieu of the music than its sound. British punk by contrast was more homogeneous in its first wave, though even there the family resemblances concept is handy to make sense of why some bands got included.
Punk has to be about attitude and that covers a massive spectrum in music. Even within the same scene NY punk I find little in the way of smilarity musically between The Heartbreakers and Patti Smith group other than attitude and a love of Rock n' Roll.
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by eumaas » 29 May 2018, 7:47pm

Marky Dread wrote:
29 May 2018, 7:45pm
eumaas wrote:
29 May 2018, 7:27pm
This is also a question of degree. Some genres have a tighter grouping of traits than others. For example, dance music tends to have more rigid definitions, such that a track without the squelching TB-303 (or similar synth) sound doesn't count as acid house. Or something more familiar to the board, why not contrast New York punk and British punk? The former has a more heterogeneous sound than the latter. With NY punk the common traits seem to bear more on the social milieu of the music than its sound. British punk by contrast was more homogeneous in its first wave, though even there the family resemblances concept is handy to make sense of why some bands got included.
Punk has to be about attitude and that covers a massive spectrum in music. Even within the same scene NY punk I find little in the way of smilarity musically between The Heartbreakers and Patti Smith group other than attitude and a love of Rock n' Roll.
Yep, that's what I'm saying. The Ramones and the Voidoids have little in common. Both are punk. There isn't one essential trait held in common by all instances of punk.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
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I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by eumaas » 29 May 2018, 7:48pm

However, that said, the class of '76-78 sounded more alike than the NY punks did. Even then, though, you've got weird examples like the Spex.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
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I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Dr. Medulla » 29 May 2018, 8:01pm

Really following the tangent now, but initial American punk—New York and L.A. had true scenes—is notable for how goddamned diverse the sounds were. They were unified, if only in people's imagination, by a rejection of mainstream music and a desire to embrace amateurism and experimentation. And the fact that they were playing the same bars. As scenes, they seemed to jump straight to post-punk. As Gene said, the UK had a lot more of a coherent sound, with bands working off the Pistols/Ramones template.
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Heston » 29 May 2018, 8:50pm

Wolter wrote:
29 May 2018, 5:51pm
My favorite Stones album is their 60s singles after they started actually playing pop music.
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by eumaas » 29 May 2018, 8:52pm

I probably shouldn't like the Stones, but I love most of their work until the 80s.
I feel that there is a fascistic element, for example, in the Rolling Stones . . .
— Morton Feldman

I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy

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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by muppet hi fi » 29 May 2018, 9:05pm

Heston wrote:
29 May 2018, 8:50pm
Wolter wrote:
29 May 2018, 5:51pm
My favorite Stones album is their 60s singles after they started actually playing pop music.
Wolston Manor is open for business again this summer.
What, after playing all that horrible negro music early on? :twitch:
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by Wolter » 29 May 2018, 9:18pm

muppet hi fi wrote:
29 May 2018, 9:05pm
Heston wrote:
29 May 2018, 8:50pm
Wolter wrote:
29 May 2018, 5:51pm
My favorite Stones album is their 60s singles after they started actually playing pop music.
Wolston Manor is open for business again this summer.
What, after playing all that horrible negro music early on? :twitch:
I don’t care for their blues covers. I don’t doubt they’re decent players. I just find 90% of electric blues played by white Englishmen in the 60s to be kind of dull.

I really don’t want to have a debate though. This is personal taste and you’re not going to convince me otherwise.
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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by 101Walterton » 29 May 2018, 9:18pm

I’ve always thought Punk was more of an extreme of the Mod scene, in clothes and music, than any other genre.
However can clearly see and hear the other genre influence to varying degrees.

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Re: Music opinion/question of the week...

Post by muppet hi fi » 29 May 2018, 9:34pm

Wolter wrote:
29 May 2018, 9:18pm
muppet hi fi wrote:
29 May 2018, 9:05pm
Heston wrote:
29 May 2018, 8:50pm
Wolter wrote:
29 May 2018, 5:51pm
My favorite Stones album is their 60s singles after they started actually playing pop music.
Wolston Manor is open for business again this summer.
What, after playing all that horrible negro music early on? :twitch:
I don’t care for their blues covers. I don’t doubt they’re decent players. I just find 90% of electric blues played by white Englishmen in the 60s to be kind of dull.

I really don’t want to have a debate though. This is personal taste and you’re not going to convince me otherwise.
No worries, man. Wasn't going to argue anyway. Was mostly just having a go at Hes (cuz he always deserves one :mrgreen: ), but I fully get where you cats are coming from anyway.
Strong shoes is what we got and when they're hot they're hot!
- Marky Dread and his fabulous Screaming Blue Messiahs

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