Punk … for credit

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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Punk … for credit

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Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 4:39pm
One of my ideas for thinking about punk cinema is to show Penelope Spheeris' Suburbia, not mainly because of the subject matter but because of Spheeris. Another possibility is something by Scott B and Beth B or other early No Wave filmmakers. Any other ideas along the lines of punk filmmaking?
Just out of curiosity what is your starting reference for Punk?

Will you be including The VU and stuff like Valerie Solanas S.C.U.M. ?
It won't be a history-oriented course, so I won't stop students if they want to consider proto-punk (goddammit, Chuck!) or other antecedents to their interpretations. I'll probably stick with '74–'75, tho, using CBGB and Devo/Pere Ubu as the basic starting point. But I'm not a real stickler in this case.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Marky Dread
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Re: Punk … for credit

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:23pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 4:39pm
One of my ideas for thinking about punk cinema is to show Penelope Spheeris' Suburbia, not mainly because of the subject matter but because of Spheeris. Another possibility is something by Scott B and Beth B or other early No Wave filmmakers. Any other ideas along the lines of punk filmmaking?
Just out of curiosity what is your starting reference for Punk?

Will you be including The VU and stuff like Valerie Solanas S.C.U.M. ?
It won't be a history-oriented course, so I won't stop students if they want to consider proto-punk (goddammit, Chuck!) or other antecedents to their interpretations. I'll probably stick with '74–'75, tho, using CBGB and Devo/Pere Ubu as the basic starting point. But I'm not a real stickler in this case.
I think the story isn't complete without the MC5/Stooges/Dolls/Neon Boys/Television et all.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Punk … for credit

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:28pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:23pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 4:39pm
One of my ideas for thinking about punk cinema is to show Penelope Spheeris' Suburbia, not mainly because of the subject matter but because of Spheeris. Another possibility is something by Scott B and Beth B or other early No Wave filmmakers. Any other ideas along the lines of punk filmmaking?
Just out of curiosity what is your starting reference for Punk?

Will you be including The VU and stuff like Valerie Solanas S.C.U.M. ?
It won't be a history-oriented course, so I won't stop students if they want to consider proto-punk (goddammit, Chuck!) or other antecedents to their interpretations. I'll probably stick with '74–'75, tho, using CBGB and Devo/Pere Ubu as the basic starting point. But I'm not a real stickler in this case.
I think the story isn't complete without the MC5/Stooges/Dolls/Neon Boys/Television et all.
Sure, and I don't have a problem with that being invoked. But, as I said, this isn't a history course and it isn't primarily about music. In a way, my ambition is to encourage people to think about it less as music and more as a perspective or even philosophy, and that music is just one expression (albeit the most common and best-known) of that perspective.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

101Walterton
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Re: Punk … for credit

Post by 101Walterton »

Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 4:31pm
101Walterton wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 4:25pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 3:54pm
101Walterton wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 3:34pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 3:22pm


Looking back Steve was sharp when it came to being streetwise and surviving. But he was clueless about politics and was only ever interested sex. The Pistols got him exactly what he wanted at the time.
Matlock was only interested in being a pop star and Cooky was just enjoying the fun with Steve.
That only leaves Johnny and Malcolm?
Malcolm didn't write the songs. Don't agree that Matlock wanted to be a pop star as such but he wasn't afraid of success either.
Steve and Paul were typical lads about town and were indeed in it for the crack. John role was about survival as he had little going for him until he was fortunate enough to get asked into the band by error.
Matlock was more into the music than the rest was what I meant.
I don't know mate they were all into their music. Maybe you are trying to say Matlock cared a bit more and was more earnest?
Yeah I think if punk never happened and there had been some other genre appear Matlock would have been in a band and written songs for that.

Marky Dread
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Re: Punk … for credit

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:40pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:28pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:23pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 4:39pm
One of my ideas for thinking about punk cinema is to show Penelope Spheeris' Suburbia, not mainly because of the subject matter but because of Spheeris. Another possibility is something by Scott B and Beth B or other early No Wave filmmakers. Any other ideas along the lines of punk filmmaking?
Just out of curiosity what is your starting reference for Punk?

Will you be including The VU and stuff like Valerie Solanas S.C.U.M. ?
It won't be a history-oriented course, so I won't stop students if they want to consider proto-punk (goddammit, Chuck!) or other antecedents to their interpretations. I'll probably stick with '74–'75, tho, using CBGB and Devo/Pere Ubu as the basic starting point. But I'm not a real stickler in this case.
I think the story isn't complete without the MC5/Stooges/Dolls/Neon Boys/Television et all.
Sure, and I don't have a problem with that being invoked. But, as I said, this isn't a history course and it isn't primarily about music. In a way, my ambition is to encourage people to think about it less as music and more as a perspective or even philosophy, and that music is just one expression (albeit the most common and best-known) of that perspective.
It's difficult for me to think less about the music. But yes I see where you're going now. Punk attitude as a springboard to other outlets. Advertising was/is heavily affected by punk.
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Marky Dread
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Re: Punk … for credit

Post by Marky Dread »

101Walterton wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:44pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 4:31pm
101Walterton wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 4:25pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 3:54pm
101Walterton wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 3:34pm


Matlock was only interested in being a pop star and Cooky was just enjoying the fun with Steve.
That only leaves Johnny and Malcolm?
Malcolm didn't write the songs. Don't agree that Matlock wanted to be a pop star as such but he wasn't afraid of success either.
Steve and Paul were typical lads about town and were indeed in it for the crack. John role was about survival as he had little going for him until he was fortunate enough to get asked into the band by error.
Matlock was more into the music than the rest was what I meant.
I don't know mate they were all into their music. Maybe you are trying to say Matlock cared a bit more and was more earnest?
Yeah I think if punk never happened and there had been some other genre appear Matlock would have been in a band and written songs for that.
As would Cook and Jones. They were fans of Roxy Music and The Faces as much of The Dolls and Stooges. It's important to remember that the Sex Pistols never called themselves Punk.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Punk … for credit

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:54pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:40pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:28pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:23pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:17pm


Just out of curiosity what is your starting reference for Punk?

Will you be including The VU and stuff like Valerie Solanas S.C.U.M. ?
It won't be a history-oriented course, so I won't stop students if they want to consider proto-punk (goddammit, Chuck!) or other antecedents to their interpretations. I'll probably stick with '74–'75, tho, using CBGB and Devo/Pere Ubu as the basic starting point. But I'm not a real stickler in this case.
I think the story isn't complete without the MC5/Stooges/Dolls/Neon Boys/Television et all.
Sure, and I don't have a problem with that being invoked. But, as I said, this isn't a history course and it isn't primarily about music. In a way, my ambition is to encourage people to think about it less as music and more as a perspective or even philosophy, and that music is just one expression (albeit the most common and best-known) of that perspective.
It's difficult for me to think less about the music. But yes I see where you're going now. Punk attitude as a springboard to other outlets. Advertising was/is heavily affected by punk.
Exactly. Punk is a relative rarity in popular music (hip hop also comes to mind) in that it has spawned wider forms of artistic expression but also political activism and business models. We'd never think about, say, soul or disco as generating something approximating a philosophy. That's what I'm trying to tease out—is there more to punk than punk music? And if so, what's its value? I think, for example, that punk has influenced me as a historian, encouraging me to look at the detritus of popular culture (e.g., pulp novels, exploitation films) as having real meaning and value. I gravitate to those sources in the same way that punk validates marginalized people by rejecting conventional hierarchies. That stuff is important to me. That's the kind of mindset I'm hoping to encourage—be open to possibilities by rejecting those hierarchies and build something personally meaningful.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Marky Dread
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Re: Punk … for credit

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:04pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:54pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:40pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:28pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 5:23pm


It won't be a history-oriented course, so I won't stop students if they want to consider proto-punk (goddammit, Chuck!) or other antecedents to their interpretations. I'll probably stick with '74–'75, tho, using CBGB and Devo/Pere Ubu as the basic starting point. But I'm not a real stickler in this case.
I think the story isn't complete without the MC5/Stooges/Dolls/Neon Boys/Television et all.
Sure, and I don't have a problem with that being invoked. But, as I said, this isn't a history course and it isn't primarily about music. In a way, my ambition is to encourage people to think about it less as music and more as a perspective or even philosophy, and that music is just one expression (albeit the most common and best-known) of that perspective.
It's difficult for me to think less about the music. But yes I see where you're going now. Punk attitude as a springboard to other outlets. Advertising was/is heavily affected by punk.
Exactly. Punk is a relative rarity in popular music (hip hop also comes to mind) in that it has spawned wider forms of artistic expression but also political activism and business models. We'd never think about, say, soul or disco as generating something approximating a philosophy. That's what I'm trying to tease out—is there more to punk than punk music? And if so, what's its value? I think, for example, that punk has influenced me as a historian, encouraging me to look at the detritus of popular culture (e.g., pulp novels, exploitation films) as having real meaning and value. I gravitate to those sources in the same way that punk validates marginalized people by rejecting conventional hierarchies. That stuff is important to me. That's the kind of mindset I'm hoping to encourage—be open to possibilities by rejecting those hierarchies and build something personally meaningful.
Then it's a very difficult subject to make sense of as it has had such a profound affect on so many things and it means different things to different people.

But you can see and feel how the attitude and fashion of punk is everywhere. But you also have to analyse what made punk and how and what informed it. There are many positives but as you mentioned previously also negatives. Where punk addressed racism it to was very easily hijacked by racist groups.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Punk … for credit

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Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:16pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:04pm
Exactly. Punk is a relative rarity in popular music (hip hop also comes to mind) in that it has spawned wider forms of artistic expression but also political activism and business models. We'd never think about, say, soul or disco as generating something approximating a philosophy. That's what I'm trying to tease out—is there more to punk than punk music? And if so, what's its value? I think, for example, that punk has influenced me as a historian, encouraging me to look at the detritus of popular culture (e.g., pulp novels, exploitation films) as having real meaning and value. I gravitate to those sources in the same way that punk validates marginalized people by rejecting conventional hierarchies. That stuff is important to me. That's the kind of mindset I'm hoping to encourage—be open to possibilities by rejecting those hierarchies and build something personally meaningful.
Then it's a very difficult subject to make sense of as it has had such a profound affect on so many things and it means different things to different people.

But you can see and feel how the attitude and fashion of punk is everywhere. But you also have to analyse what made punk and how and what informed it. There are many positives but as you mentioned previously also negatives. Where punk addressed racism it to was very easily hijacked by racist groups.
And that's what I'm hoping for with this course. For students to become more critical towards punk as a concept—I'm assuming most if not all will be punk fans—but also to develop a more personal understanding of what it means to them, and what it might offer socially. Punk was a psychological liberator for me, growing up in a nasty small prairie town (I'm not bitter but I wouldn't mind if it burned down :shifty: ), but it's easy to appreciate how it becomes its own prison. That's the fascination—how can this concept be both in equal measure? Everyone here has ended up on the liberating side of the equation, but not everyone figures out the value in being critical and open to possibility.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Marky Dread
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Re: Punk … for credit

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:31pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:16pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:04pm
Exactly. Punk is a relative rarity in popular music (hip hop also comes to mind) in that it has spawned wider forms of artistic expression but also political activism and business models. We'd never think about, say, soul or disco as generating something approximating a philosophy. That's what I'm trying to tease out—is there more to punk than punk music? And if so, what's its value? I think, for example, that punk has influenced me as a historian, encouraging me to look at the detritus of popular culture (e.g., pulp novels, exploitation films) as having real meaning and value. I gravitate to those sources in the same way that punk validates marginalized people by rejecting conventional hierarchies. That stuff is important to me. That's the kind of mindset I'm hoping to encourage—be open to possibilities by rejecting those hierarchies and build something personally meaningful.
Then it's a very difficult subject to make sense of as it has had such a profound affect on so many things and it means different things to different people.

But you can see and feel how the attitude and fashion of punk is everywhere. But you also have to analyse what made punk and how and what informed it. There are many positives but as you mentioned previously also negatives. Where punk addressed racism it to was very easily hijacked by racist groups.
And that's what I'm hoping for with this course. For students to become more critical towards punk as a concept—I'm assuming most if not all will be punk fans—but also to develop a more personal understanding of what it means to them, and what it might offer socially. Punk was a psychological liberator for me, growing up in a nasty small prairie town (I'm not bitter but I wouldn't mind if it burned down :shifty: ), but it's easy to appreciate how it becomes its own prison. That's the fascination—how can this concept be both in equal measure? Everyone here has ended up on the liberating side of the equation, but not everyone figures out the value in being critical and open to possibility.
I'm very critical of punk. I adore it for sure as the change it gave me on personal level was immense but and it's a huge but there is so much bullshit attached to it. So many of the punk ideals were nonsense and really dumb. Many hippie ideals were based in much more sound foundations.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Punk … for credit

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Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:52pm
I'm very critical of punk. I adore it for sure as the change it gave me on personal level was immense but and it's a huge but there is so much bullshit attached to it. So many of the punk ideals were nonsense and really dumb. Many hippie ideals were based in much more sound foundations.
That's one of the amusing things about punk. The people who have taken it beyond music take a lot of inspiration from the 60s counterculture (e.g., Biafra, MacKaye). The "kill all hippies" mantra is great sloganeering and all, and the kind of hippie assholes they were talking about deserved scorn (Deadheads), but the best of the counterculture informed punk. But, generally, yeah, there's as much that I hate about punk as what I love. Which seems proper.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

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Re: Punk … for credit

Post by gkbill »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:58pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:52pm
I'm very critical of punk. I adore it for sure as the change it gave me on personal level was immense but and it's a huge but there is so much bullshit attached to it. So many of the punk ideals were nonsense and really dumb. Many hippie ideals were based in much more sound foundations.
That's one of the amusing things about punk. The people who have taken it beyond music take a lot of inspiration from the 60s counterculture (e.g., Biafra, MacKaye). The "kill all hippies" mantra is great sloganeering and all, and the kind of hippie assholes they were talking about deserved scorn (Deadheads), but the best of the counterculture informed punk. But, generally, yeah, there's as much that I hate about punk as what I love. Which seems proper.
Hello,

So many good questions - I don't envy your task of developing a curriculum for this!

Random thoughts while reading comments:
*I think you have to mention the Dolls at some point - more of an impact on Malcolm than the Stooges or VU, thus more of an impact on punk;
*I would consider DEVO more new wave as they had a much more arty take; they did have social impact but more arty method than punk;
*Good luck with your upcoming No Wave course - based on student response/demand!

Dr. Medulla
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Re: Punk … for credit

Post by Dr. Medulla »

gkbill wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 10:24pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:58pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:52pm
I'm very critical of punk. I adore it for sure as the change it gave me on personal level was immense but and it's a huge but there is so much bullshit attached to it. So many of the punk ideals were nonsense and really dumb. Many hippie ideals were based in much more sound foundations.
That's one of the amusing things about punk. The people who have taken it beyond music take a lot of inspiration from the 60s counterculture (e.g., Biafra, MacKaye). The "kill all hippies" mantra is great sloganeering and all, and the kind of hippie assholes they were talking about deserved scorn (Deadheads), but the best of the counterculture informed punk. But, generally, yeah, there's as much that I hate about punk as what I love. Which seems proper.
Hello,

So many good questions - I don't envy your task of developing a curriculum for this!

Random thoughts while reading comments:
*I think you have to mention the Dolls at some point - more of an impact on Malcolm than the Stooges or VU, thus more of an impact on punk;
*I would consider DEVO more new wave as they had a much more arty take; they did have social impact but more arty method than punk;
*Good luck with your upcoming No Wave course - based on student response/demand!
I'm taking "punk" in a very expansive way, benefiting in no small part from Kory's suggestion a few months ago that post-punk is just punk as it leaves the original centres in which it began (e.g., NYC, London, L.A.). That post-punk is better appreciated as a geographic reference, less than an aesthetic or chronological one. So all those that get called pre-punk or post-punk should be fair game, which is really important if we want to think of this as having currency, not just a historical blip. It's gotta have room to breathe as a concept. I also don't want to immediately straightjacket people intellectually. Better to let them be more open and narrow criteria down for themselves by argument.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Kory
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Re: Punk … for credit

Post by Kory »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:58pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:52pm
I'm very critical of punk. I adore it for sure as the change it gave me on personal level was immense but and it's a huge but there is so much bullshit attached to it. So many of the punk ideals were nonsense and really dumb. Many hippie ideals were based in much more sound foundations.
That's one of the amusing things about punk. The people who have taken it beyond music take a lot of inspiration from the 60s counterculture (e.g., Biafra, MacKaye).
DON'T FORGET CRASS
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Punk … for credit

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Kory wrote:
11 Mar 2020, 1:20pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:58pm
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Mar 2020, 6:52pm
I'm very critical of punk. I adore it for sure as the change it gave me on personal level was immense but and it's a huge but there is so much bullshit attached to it. So many of the punk ideals were nonsense and really dumb. Many hippie ideals were based in much more sound foundations.
That's one of the amusing things about punk. The people who have taken it beyond music take a lot of inspiration from the 60s counterculture (e.g., Biafra, MacKaye).
DON'T FORGET CRASS
Yes, mom.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

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