For all of us Shitallica fans

General music discussion.
Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 94277
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Nerdo Crombezia

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Wolter wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 3:47pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 12:08pm
Nothing better completes the evaporation of radical cred than letting a car company use your music.
https://bravewords.com/news/metallica-e ... 150-raptor
In fairness, the album that Enter Sandman came from 30 years ago was considered the completion of that cred evaporation by most of the people who were listening to them in the mid 80s.

I mean, it made them orders of magnitude richer and I assume they never really looked back, but still...
I suppose, tho there's a difference, I think, between the mainstream catching up and finding them cool and them actively selling themselves to as lame a corporation as Ford. To the serious fan, mass audience is mass audience, but I would hope that a car ad is understood to be worse than MTV.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

matedog
User avatar
Purveyor of Hoyistic Thought
Posts: 22850
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 4:07pm
Location: 1995

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by matedog »

I never thought of Metallica as holier than thou in terms of selling out and what, so this isn't surprising or anything. They are a huge band that plays huge shows and stuff, so I this doesn't seem particularly bad. As far as I know, they aren't political either. That's the difference between Metallica doing this and *if* Bruce does it.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

Wolter
User avatar
Half Foghorn Leghorn, Half Woody Allen
Posts: 54652
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 7:59pm
Location: ¡HOLIDAY RO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-OAD!

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by Wolter »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 3:52pm
Wolter wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 3:47pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 12:08pm
Nothing better completes the evaporation of radical cred than letting a car company use your music.
https://bravewords.com/news/metallica-e ... 150-raptor
In fairness, the album that Enter Sandman came from 30 years ago was considered the completion of that cred evaporation by most of the people who were listening to them in the mid 80s.

I mean, it made them orders of magnitude richer and I assume they never really looked back, but still...
I suppose, tho there's a difference, I think, between the mainstream catching up and finding them cool and them actively selling themselves to as lame a corporation as Ford. To the serious fan, mass audience is mass audience, but I would hope that a car ad is understood to be worse than MTV.
Thrash was the one major 80s metal genre that had the same sort of outsider cache as punk, though. The hardcore thrash fans were as protective about it as we were about our stuff. Metallica doing a video on MTV for One in 88 or so legit lost them a ton of OG fans. Not being MTV Metal was kind of their whole street cred thing.

It made them orders of magnitude more fans outside of that, but this is more a culmination of what already happened to their street cred from ...And Justice For All on than a new thing.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 94277
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Nerdo Crombezia

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Wolter wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 4:49pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 3:52pm
Wolter wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 3:47pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 12:08pm
Nothing better completes the evaporation of radical cred than letting a car company use your music.
https://bravewords.com/news/metallica-e ... 150-raptor
In fairness, the album that Enter Sandman came from 30 years ago was considered the completion of that cred evaporation by most of the people who were listening to them in the mid 80s.

I mean, it made them orders of magnitude richer and I assume they never really looked back, but still...
I suppose, tho there's a difference, I think, between the mainstream catching up and finding them cool and them actively selling themselves to as lame a corporation as Ford. To the serious fan, mass audience is mass audience, but I would hope that a car ad is understood to be worse than MTV.
Thrash was the one major 80s metal genre that had the same sort of outsider cache as punk, though. The hardcore thrash fans were as protective about it as we were about our stuff. Metallica doing a video on MTV for One in 88 or so legit lost them a ton of OG fans. Not being MTV Metal was kind of their whole street cred thing.

It made them orders of magnitude more fans outside of that, but this is more a culmination of what already happened to their street cred from ...And Justice For All on than a new thing.
I'll defer to your understanding of thrash fans. Maybe I've also become jaundiced about fandom's various sacred lines that can't be crossed.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Kory
User avatar
Unknown Immortal
Posts: 13420
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 1:42pm
Location: In the Discosphere

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by Kory »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 4:56pm
Wolter wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 4:49pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 3:52pm
Wolter wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 3:47pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 12:08pm
Nothing better completes the evaporation of radical cred than letting a car company use your music.
https://bravewords.com/news/metallica-e ... 150-raptor
In fairness, the album that Enter Sandman came from 30 years ago was considered the completion of that cred evaporation by most of the people who were listening to them in the mid 80s.

I mean, it made them orders of magnitude richer and I assume they never really looked back, but still...
I suppose, tho there's a difference, I think, between the mainstream catching up and finding them cool and them actively selling themselves to as lame a corporation as Ford. To the serious fan, mass audience is mass audience, but I would hope that a car ad is understood to be worse than MTV.
Thrash was the one major 80s metal genre that had the same sort of outsider cache as punk, though. The hardcore thrash fans were as protective about it as we were about our stuff. Metallica doing a video on MTV for One in 88 or so legit lost them a ton of OG fans. Not being MTV Metal was kind of their whole street cred thing.

It made them orders of magnitude more fans outside of that, but this is more a culmination of what already happened to their street cred from ...And Justice For All on than a new thing.
I'll defer to your understanding of thrash fans. Maybe I've also become jaundiced about fandom's various sacred lines that can't be crossed.
Selling out isn't really a thing anymore. The only people that still care are our age.
WWK: I feel confident we haven't heard the last from Dr. Harvey Camel.

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 94277
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Nerdo Crombezia

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Kory wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 5:03pm
Selling out isn't really a thing anymore. The only people that still care are our age.
Or at least it's not the gravest of sins. It's admirable as hell by those who refuse, but they stand out for it rather than just properly practicing ethical behaviour. People gotta eat and make rent. I do draw a distinction when bands or actors with enough money for the unborn descendents to live comfortably active pursue a payday that is clearly just about easy cash to throw on the pile. There's acts of necessity and those of flabby luxury.

edit: As frustrating as people here might be about the lack of legacy product from the Clash, they haven't exploited the hell out of their name and music that they could.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Wolter
User avatar
Half Foghorn Leghorn, Half Woody Allen
Posts: 54652
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 7:59pm
Location: ¡HOLIDAY RO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-OAD!

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by Wolter »

I think people under a certain age (especially in the US, but really anywhere capitalist) have never really known a world where the idea of being able to support a life without capitulation to Big Corporate is feasible, so selling out has an appeal it used to not.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 94277
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Nerdo Crombezia

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Wolter wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 5:23pm
I think people under a certain age (especially in the US, but really anywhere capitalist) have never really known a world where the idea of being able to support a life without capitulation to Big Corporate is feasible, so selling out has an appeal it used to not.
I recall when Trump was elected and a few people tries to shitade by saying he'd be a boost for radical music the way Reagan and Thatcher were. Which entirely ignored the social and economic contexts of both. That cities like New York had been abandoned and were cheap to live in for scuzzy artists was vital as hell and not comparable to conditions now. Slicing up the social safety net over the past forty years has further made that independent boho artist think less feasible. It sucks, but economics usually squashes romance.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Kory
User avatar
Unknown Immortal
Posts: 13420
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 1:42pm
Location: In the Discosphere

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by Kory »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 5:39pm
Wolter wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 5:23pm
I think people under a certain age (especially in the US, but really anywhere capitalist) have never really known a world where the idea of being able to support a life without capitulation to Big Corporate is feasible, so selling out has an appeal it used to not.
I recall when Trump was elected and a few people tries to shitade by saying he'd be a boost for radical music the way Reagan and Thatcher were. Which entirely ignored the social and economic contexts of both. That cities like New York had been abandoned and were cheap to live in for scuzzy artists was vital as hell and not comparable to conditions now. Slicing up the social safety net over the past forty years has further made that independent boho artist think less feasible. It sucks, but economics usually squashes romance.
Not to mention it wouldn't have been worth it to get whatever great music MIGHT have come out of it. I made a decision a long time ago to just keep all my music separate from commerce. All my albums are free on Bandcamp, I don't really spend any time promoting it, I don't care if it gets traded. It's just easier that way. As soon as money's involved, it starts making decisions for you, or you start feeling down on yourself if you're not making any. As you mentioned, I don't care if people without trust funds go ahead and license their stuff, but if you don't need to, it's pretty gross.
WWK: I feel confident we haven't heard the last from Dr. Harvey Camel.

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 94277
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Nerdo Crombezia

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Kory wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 5:49pm
Not to mention it wouldn't have been worth it to get whatever great music MIGHT have come out of it. I made a decision a long time ago to just keep all my music separate from commerce. All my albums are free on Bandcamp, I don't really spend any time promoting it, I don't care if it gets traded. It's just easier that way. As soon as money's involved, it starts making decisions for you, or you start feeling down on yourself if you're not making any. As you mentioned, I don't care if people without trust funds go ahead and license their stuff, but if you don't need to, it's pretty gross.
My punk seminar just had a discussion on punk business/economics. One of the authors made the claim that a punk attitude says you shouldn't make a career from your music, it shouldn't be how you pay your bills, otherwise you'll eventually sacrifice art for commerce. In essence, your approach. I can understand that perspective in a very cold sense and appreciate keeping music sacred in some sense, but that means you have to continue grinding away at a shitty job rather than dedicate yourself to your art and other activities. It seems to validate resistant art as necessarily marginalized or secondary. I find that discomforting if you want to model a better way of life.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Kory
User avatar
Unknown Immortal
Posts: 13420
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 1:42pm
Location: In the Discosphere

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by Kory »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 6:05pm
Kory wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 5:49pm
Not to mention it wouldn't have been worth it to get whatever great music MIGHT have come out of it. I made a decision a long time ago to just keep all my music separate from commerce. All my albums are free on Bandcamp, I don't really spend any time promoting it, I don't care if it gets traded. It's just easier that way. As soon as money's involved, it starts making decisions for you, or you start feeling down on yourself if you're not making any. As you mentioned, I don't care if people without trust funds go ahead and license their stuff, but if you don't need to, it's pretty gross.
My punk seminar just had a discussion on punk business/economics. One of the authors made the claim that a punk attitude says you shouldn't make a career from your music, it shouldn't be how you pay your bills, otherwise you'll eventually sacrifice art for commerce. In essence, your approach. I can understand that perspective in a very cold sense and appreciate keeping music sacred in some sense, but that means you have to continue grinding away at a shitty job rather than dedicate yourself to your art and other activities. It seems to validate resistant art as necessarily marginalized or secondary. I find that discomforting if you want to model a better way of life.
I think the alternative is a pipe dream. Being successful enough with music to pay your bills or even buy more than one lunch a month is next to impossible, especially with the internet making music free for all. I consider myself an idealist, but this is one area I don't really see changing. Nobody values music as much as the people making it, and there's both too much competition now and no real avenue to make a living with it unless you're REAL lucky.
WWK: I feel confident we haven't heard the last from Dr. Harvey Camel.

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 94277
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Nerdo Crombezia

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Kory wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 6:49pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 6:05pm
Kory wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 5:49pm
Not to mention it wouldn't have been worth it to get whatever great music MIGHT have come out of it. I made a decision a long time ago to just keep all my music separate from commerce. All my albums are free on Bandcamp, I don't really spend any time promoting it, I don't care if it gets traded. It's just easier that way. As soon as money's involved, it starts making decisions for you, or you start feeling down on yourself if you're not making any. As you mentioned, I don't care if people without trust funds go ahead and license their stuff, but if you don't need to, it's pretty gross.
My punk seminar just had a discussion on punk business/economics. One of the authors made the claim that a punk attitude says you shouldn't make a career from your music, it shouldn't be how you pay your bills, otherwise you'll eventually sacrifice art for commerce. In essence, your approach. I can understand that perspective in a very cold sense and appreciate keeping music sacred in some sense, but that means you have to continue grinding away at a shitty job rather than dedicate yourself to your art and other activities. It seems to validate resistant art as necessarily marginalized or secondary. I find that discomforting if you want to model a better way of life.
I think the alternative is a pipe dream. Being successful enough with music to pay your bills or even buy more than one lunch a month is next to impossible, especially with the internet making music free for all. I consider myself an idealist, but this is one area I don't really see changing. Nobody values music as much as the people making it, and there's both too much competition now and no real avenue to make a living with it unless you're REAL lucky.
That was what I was always telling my friend who wanted to be a novelist—the number of published writers who live exclusively off their work is relatively small. Most still have regular jobs that pay the bills. Artistry and independence are winning the lottery. My niece is an academic and wrote a book a few years ago about how, regardless of the effects of piracy on the music industry, it's managed quite well by pursuing other revenue streams like licensing, which tend to be really bad deals for artists, but it's still more than they'd be getting the current economic environment for musicians. The glory years of the 70s–90s for successful artists should not be held up as any way the norm. Maybe it's some kind of blessing, untethering music from commerce for most artists and ensuring that it's made for non-commercial (i.e., "sincere") reasons? I dunno. I'm still enough of a romantic, I guess, that I want artists to be able to dedicate their lives to their work, meaning money isn't a concern.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Kory
User avatar
Unknown Immortal
Posts: 13420
Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 1:42pm
Location: In the Discosphere

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by Kory »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 7:05pm
Kory wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 6:49pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 6:05pm
Kory wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 5:49pm
Not to mention it wouldn't have been worth it to get whatever great music MIGHT have come out of it. I made a decision a long time ago to just keep all my music separate from commerce. All my albums are free on Bandcamp, I don't really spend any time promoting it, I don't care if it gets traded. It's just easier that way. As soon as money's involved, it starts making decisions for you, or you start feeling down on yourself if you're not making any. As you mentioned, I don't care if people without trust funds go ahead and license their stuff, but if you don't need to, it's pretty gross.
My punk seminar just had a discussion on punk business/economics. One of the authors made the claim that a punk attitude says you shouldn't make a career from your music, it shouldn't be how you pay your bills, otherwise you'll eventually sacrifice art for commerce. In essence, your approach. I can understand that perspective in a very cold sense and appreciate keeping music sacred in some sense, but that means you have to continue grinding away at a shitty job rather than dedicate yourself to your art and other activities. It seems to validate resistant art as necessarily marginalized or secondary. I find that discomforting if you want to model a better way of life.
I think the alternative is a pipe dream. Being successful enough with music to pay your bills or even buy more than one lunch a month is next to impossible, especially with the internet making music free for all. I consider myself an idealist, but this is one area I don't really see changing. Nobody values music as much as the people making it, and there's both too much competition now and no real avenue to make a living with it unless you're REAL lucky.
That was what I was always telling my friend who wanted to be a novelist—the number of published writers who live exclusively off their work is relatively small. Most still have regular jobs that pay the bills. Artistry and independence are winning the lottery. My niece is an academic and wrote a book a few years ago about how, regardless of the effects of piracy on the music industry, it's managed quite well by pursuing other revenue streams like licensing, which tend to be really bad deals for artists, but it's still more than they'd be getting the current economic environment for musicians. The glory years of the 70s–90s for successful artists should not be held up as any way the norm. Maybe it's some kind of blessing, untethering music from commerce for most artists and ensuring that it's made for non-commercial (i.e., "sincere") reasons? I dunno. I'm still enough of a romantic, I guess, that I want artists to be able to dedicate their lives to their work, meaning money isn't a concern.
Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE that, and spend most of my waking hours lamenting that it's not possible. If you know any patrons, please send them my way.
WWK: I feel confident we haven't heard the last from Dr. Harvey Camel.

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 94277
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Nerdo Crombezia

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Kory wrote:
05 Feb 2021, 7:08pm
Don't get me wrong, I would LOVE that, and spend most of my waking hours lamenting that it's not possible. If you know any patrons, please send them my way.
It's basically what crowdfunding is at this point. I'm a reliable contributor to anything Swans or Wire do, buying the bigger package mainly to give them the advance funds. I'm also on a patreon for Trashcan Sinatras. I haven't gotten much from them in terms of music or what have you relative to what I'm paying, but I'm happy to help them keep their heads above water and stick to it.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Silent Majority
User avatar
Singer-Songwriter Nancy
Posts: 16757
Joined: 10 Nov 2008, 8:28pm
Location: A republic of mind

Re: For all of us Shitallica fans

Post by Silent Majority »

My wildest pipedream is that my novels one day provide enough of an income to allow me to only have to work a part time day job.
Wave bye bye to the boss
It's our profit, it's his loss


www.pexlives.libsyn.com/

Post Reply