Pistols: Brixton 2016 vs. Dallas 1978

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gkbill
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Pistols: Brixton 2016 vs. Dallas 1978

Post by gkbill »

Hello,

I've just been watching the Pistols shows from Dallas '78 and Brixton '16. It's really given me a lot to think about. If you asked both crowds on their way out if you enjoyed the show, I'm fairly confident the Brixton crowd would say they had a better, "more fun" show. However, after 20 years, which crowd would remember and have been more moved/changed by the show? I'm betting the Dallas crowd (especially how much the crowd in Dallas was there to challenge the Pistols) had a much more impactful experience (I have been very focused on this topic since reading Range by David Epstein). The Dallas crowd was more challenged - the Brixton crowd was not challenged. The Brixton crowd were the converts. A side note - I was happy to watch how much happier Steve was in Brixton. He was pissed off/frustrated in Dallas - not so much in Brixton.

Following up on this, what bands currently challenge their audiences?

If this isn't clear to any, watch both shows. Watch just the bands. Look at their faces. It's really a good thought process.

topperville
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Re: Pistols: Brixton 2016 vs. Dallas 1978

Post by topperville »

gkbill wrote:
09 Sep 2020, 12:42am
Hello,

I've just been watching the Pistols shows from Dallas '78 and Brixton '16. It's really given me a lot to think about. If you asked both crowds on their way out if you enjoyed the show, I'm fairly confident the Brixton crowd would say they had a better, "more fun" show. However, after 20 years, which crowd would remember and have been more moved/changed by the show? I'm betting the Dallas crowd (especially how much the crowd in Dallas was there to challenge the Pistols) had a much more impactful experience (I have been very focused on this topic since reading Range by David Epstein). The Dallas crowd was more challenged - the Brixton crowd was not challenged. The Brixton crowd were the converts. A side note - I was happy to watch how much happier Steve was in Brixton. He was pissed off/frustrated in Dallas - not so much in Brixton.

Following up on this, what bands currently challenge their audiences?

If this isn't clear to any, watch both shows. Watch just the bands. Look at their faces. It's really a good thought process.
2016??? 2007 possibly???

gkbill
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Re: Pistols: Brixton 2016 vs. Dallas 1978

Post by gkbill »

topperville wrote:
09 Sep 2020, 12:00pm
gkbill wrote:
09 Sep 2020, 12:42am
Hello,

I've just been watching the Pistols shows from Dallas '78 and Brixton '16. It's really given me a lot to think about. If you asked both crowds on their way out if you enjoyed the show, I'm fairly confident the Brixton crowd would say they had a better, "more fun" show. However, after 20 years, which crowd would remember and have been more moved/changed by the show? I'm betting the Dallas crowd (especially how much the crowd in Dallas was there to challenge the Pistols) had a much more impactful experience (I have been very focused on this topic since reading Range by David Epstein). The Dallas crowd was more challenged - the Brixton crowd was not challenged. The Brixton crowd were the converts. A side note - I was happy to watch how much happier Steve was in Brixton. He was pissed off/frustrated in Dallas - not so much in Brixton.

Following up on this, what bands currently challenge their audiences?

If this isn't clear to any, watch both shows. Watch just the bands. Look at their faces. It's really a good thought process.
2016??? 2007 possibly???
Hello,

Oops! 2007 - you're correct!

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Re: Pistols: Brixton 2016 vs. Dallas 1978

Post by Dr. Medulla »

This kind of speaks to something we talked about quite some time ago—whether it was worth seeing a significant artist who is way past their prime just because they were significant. I'm firmly in the camp of seeing a band when they are still creative and affected by and affecting their times. One is sharing an experience, the other is like checking off a list. Seeing the Pistols in the 1970s is something that had the potential of changing your life, being part of something that was disruptive. Seeing the Pistols in 2007 was … saying you saw the Pistols.
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Re: Pistols: Brixton 2016 vs. Dallas 1978

Post by Heston »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
09 Sep 2020, 8:12pm
This kind of speaks to something we talked about quite some time ago—whether it was worth seeing a significant artist who is way past their prime just because they were significant. I'm firmly in the camp of seeing a band when they are still creative and affected by and affecting their times. One is sharing an experience, the other is like checking off a list. Seeing the Pistols in the 1970s is something that had the potential of changing your life, being part of something that was disruptive. Seeing the Pistols in 2007 was … saying you saw the Pistols.
Word.

Sonically they were probably better in 2007 but it's all about the moment.
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Re: Pistols: Brixton 2016 vs. Dallas 1978

Post by Flex »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
09 Sep 2020, 8:12pm
This kind of speaks to something we talked about quite some time ago—whether it was worth seeing a significant artist who is way past their prime just because they were significant. I'm firmly in the camp of seeing a band when they are still creative and affected by and affecting their times. One is sharing an experience, the other is like checking off a list. Seeing the Pistols in the 1970s is something that had the potential of changing your life, being part of something that was disruptive. Seeing the Pistols in 2007 was … saying you saw the Pistols.
I generally like to think I feel this way, but I admit I've gone to see like Brian Wilson and stuff, who is way past his sell-by date (sadly). I think seeing Brian live was pretty affecting for me, largely as a reflection of finding genius and beauty in the fragility of life and reflecting on mortality. Not exactly Fun, Fun, Fun but it's a different way of finding something meaningful and shared in the performance. (Seeing Dylan is kinda like this too, except he's still a vital recording artist and leans pretty deliberately into his late career as a meditation on how to embrace your twilight)

Going to Desert Trip a few years back was fun, but EXTREMELY box-check-y.
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Re: Pistols: Brixton 2016 vs. Dallas 1978

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Flex wrote:
09 Sep 2020, 10:01pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
09 Sep 2020, 8:12pm
This kind of speaks to something we talked about quite some time ago—whether it was worth seeing a significant artist who is way past their prime just because they were significant. I'm firmly in the camp of seeing a band when they are still creative and affected by and affecting their times. One is sharing an experience, the other is like checking off a list. Seeing the Pistols in the 1970s is something that had the potential of changing your life, being part of something that was disruptive. Seeing the Pistols in 2007 was … saying you saw the Pistols.
I generally like to think I feel this way, but I admit I've gone to see like Brian Wilson and stuff, who is way past his sell-by date (sadly). I think seeing Brian live was pretty affecting for me, largely as a reflection of finding genius and beauty in the fragility of life and reflecting on mortality. Not exactly Fun, Fun, Fun but it's a different way of finding something meaningful and shared in the performance. (Seeing Dylan is kinda like this too, except he's still a vital recording artist and leans pretty deliberately into his late career as a meditation on how to embrace your twilight)

Going to Desert Trip a few years back was fun, but EXTREMELY box-check-y.
That's a very valid point, tho it won't apply to every old performer. Like, seeing the Who (just to pick a 60s act) wouldn't generate the same awareness (at least I don't think it would). But those figures whose appeal is the perceived personal connection and, as you said, fragility of life, might actually grow as they get closer to the end.
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Re: Pistols: Brixton 2016 vs. Dallas 1978

Post by Marky Dread »

I understand seeing a band well after it's sell by date is never likely to compare.

However I will add many who saw the Pistols at Finsbury Park in '96 saw a great show and were not born in '76. I didn't get to see them until '96 and even with all the hype I wasn't disappointed. Because the band made the effort and at Finsbury Park and other dates on that tour they were great. They themselves realised probably for the first time just how loved they are.

When I saw them at Crystal Palace in 2002 they were crap and the show felt lazy.

I mean go compare the early listenable '76 boots and compare them to the '78 boots from the US Tour. In '76 the band are having fun in '78 they clearly are not. I'll take the '76 shows with Matlock any day over a '78 show with Vicious. In the UK the band were the Ringmaster in the US they were the freak show.

As for the later Pistols shows they are just an event for nostalgia and that's completely fine by me.
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Re: Pistols: Brixton 2016 vs. Dallas 1978

Post by Silent Majority »

Marky Dread wrote:
10 Sep 2020, 8:02am
I understand seeing a band well after it's sell by date is never likely to compare.

However I will add many who saw the Pistols at Finsbury Park in '96 saw a great show and were not born in '76. I didn't get to see them until '96 and even with all the hype I wasn't disappointed. Because the band made the effort and at Finsbury Park and other dates on that tour they were great. They themselves realised probably for the first time just how loved they are.

When I saw them at Crystal Palace in 2002 they were crap and the show felt lazy.

I mean go compare the early listenable '76 boots and compare them to the '78 boots from the US Tour. In '76 the band are having fun in '78 they clearly are not. I'll take the '76 shows with Matlock any day over a '78 show with Vicious. In the UK the band were the Ringmaster in the US they were the freak show.

As for the later Pistols shows they are just an event for nostalgia and that's completely fine by me.
Reckon they've got one more tour left in them?
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Re: Pistols: Brixton 2016 vs. Dallas 1978

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Silent Majority wrote:
10 Sep 2020, 8:15am
Reckon they've got one more tour left in them?
Depends on their bank balance.
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Re: Pistols: Brixton 2016 vs. Dallas 1978

Post by Marky Dread »

Silent Majority wrote:
10 Sep 2020, 8:15am
Marky Dread wrote:
10 Sep 2020, 8:02am
I understand seeing a band well after it's sell by date is never likely to compare.

However I will add many who saw the Pistols at Finsbury Park in '96 saw a great show and were not born in '76. I didn't get to see them until '96 and even with all the hype I wasn't disappointed. Because the band made the effort and at Finsbury Park and other dates on that tour they were great. They themselves realised probably for the first time just how loved they are.

When I saw them at Crystal Palace in 2002 they were crap and the show felt lazy.

I mean go compare the early listenable '76 boots and compare them to the '78 boots from the US Tour. In '76 the band are having fun in '78 they clearly are not. I'll take the '76 shows with Matlock any day over a '78 show with Vicious. In the UK the band were the Ringmaster in the US they were the freak show.

As for the later Pistols shows they are just an event for nostalgia and that's completely fine by me.
Reckon they've got one more tour left in them?
Highly unlikely in my opinion. John has PiL as a going concern. Paul is doing nicely with The Professionals. Steve has his radio show and has had a heart attack. Glen is always doing his solo stuff and has a close knit of friends who support him live.

Personally I hope they don't do anymore they have done their thing. They've made their money that they deserve. They proved the doubters wrong on more than one occasion. Best to leave it where it is now.
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Re: Pistols: Brixton 2016 vs. Dallas 1978

Post by Flex »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Sep 2020, 6:30am
That's a very valid point, tho it won't apply to every old performer. Like, seeing the Who (just to pick a 60s act) wouldn't generate the same awareness (at least I don't think it would). But those figures whose appeal is the perceived personal connection and, as you said, fragility of life, might actually grow as they get closer to the end.
Yeah, having seen The Who I can confirm there's none of that sense of mortality or whatever. I saw them twice and the note-for-note (including banter) replication from one concert to the other left a kinda bitter taste in my mouth. They're anti-nostalgia in a way, in both concerts I saw them they had apparently memorized diatribes slagging Keith Moon and chastising the audience for venerating him, but the result is just an evening of competently played greatest hits. I think I probably gave a positive review of them at the time here when I saw them, but the memories have aged a bit like milk.

The Stones I've seen twice in the last few years and they put on pretty different shows both times, so I give them credit for keeping it fresh and lively. I think that's a bare minimum I'm looking for if the music isn't still culturally relevant or somehow meaningfully recontextualized: at least act like you're having some fun out there and trying to keep things a bit organic. Audience members who care about such things can pick up on the cynical cash grabs.
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Re: Pistols: Brixton 2016 vs. Dallas 1978

Post by topperville »

Marky Dread wrote:
10 Sep 2020, 8:02am
I understand seeing a band well after it's sell by date is never likely to compare.

However I will add many who saw the Pistols at Finsbury Park in '96 saw a great show and were not born in '76. I didn't get to see them until '96 and even with all the hype I wasn't disappointed. Because the band made the effort and at Finsbury Park and other dates on that tour they were great. They themselves realised probably for the first time just how loved they are.

When I saw them at Crystal Palace in 2002 they were crap and the show felt lazy.

I mean go compare the early listenable '76 boots and compare them to the '78 boots from the US Tour. In '76 the band are having fun in '78 they clearly are not. I'll take the '76 shows with Matlock any day over a '78 show with Vicious. In the UK the band were the Ringmaster in the US they were the freak show.

As for the later Pistols shows they are just an event for nostalgia and that's completely fine by me.
I totally agree with this! Finsbury Park in 96 will always be in my top ten gigs simply because I got to see the Pistols live. It really was an event. Crystal Palace was an abomination in comparison - still glad I was there though!

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