The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Marky Dread
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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 9:50am
Thoughtful longish piece on the evolution of being a punk fan: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021 ... -time-punk

I suspect a lot of us here will recognize themselves in the various stages of the author's development. Pretty sure I'll be assigning this as an introductory reading.
Any assessment of being a punk is only ever correct to the individual. I know that being a punk can mean different things to different people.

Speaking only for myself being involved with punk was fucking hard and dangerous. Some of my friends did not make it through.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
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The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Marky Dread wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 12:59pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 9:50am
Thoughtful longish piece on the evolution of being a punk fan: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021 ... -time-punk

I suspect a lot of us here will recognize themselves in the various stages of the author's development. Pretty sure I'll be assigning this as an introductory reading.
Any assessment of being a punk is only ever correct to the individual. I know that being a punk can mean different things to different people.

Speaking only for myself being involved with punk was fucking hard and dangerous. Some of my friends did not make it through.
Right, certainly, tho we're never entirely distinct. There are shared perceptions, needs, behaviours. It's a matter of whether you want to look for what's common and what's distinct (not arguing for either, only that the questions we ask shape the answers we find).
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Marky Dread
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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 1:40pm
Marky Dread wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 12:59pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 9:50am
Thoughtful longish piece on the evolution of being a punk fan: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021 ... -time-punk

I suspect a lot of us here will recognize themselves in the various stages of the author's development. Pretty sure I'll be assigning this as an introductory reading.
Any assessment of being a punk is only ever correct to the individual. I know that being a punk can mean different things to different people.

Speaking only for myself being involved with punk was fucking hard and dangerous. Some of my friends did not make it through.
Right, certainly, tho we're never entirely distinct. There are shared perceptions, needs, behaviours. It's a matter of whether you want to look for what's common and what's distinct (not arguing for either, only that the questions we ask shape the answers we find).
Definitely but then that is life. I think that being a punk or associated with punk was harder in a harsh society that didn't want to accept change.
Today punk is just another fad or fashion of yesterday like Teddy Boys or Mods. The image of punk in modern society is no longer a shocking thing as it once was. It can be seen in high street fashion and it's graphics and colour sells everything from t shirts to breakfast cereals.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Marky Dread
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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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I think if I was going to sum up what I consider punk to be then it's this.

Taking the hatred and turning it into a positive force.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Low Down Low
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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 9:50am
Thoughtful longish piece on the evolution of being a punk fan: https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2021 ... -time-punk

I suspect a lot of us here will recognize themselves in the various stages of the author's development. Pretty sure I'll be assigning this as an introductory reading.
A nice read. Interesting journey from punk to hip hop to country. Though to be honest, I'm not really seeing what's all that punk about some country singer touting for war in New Jersey. I can see what he's trying to do there, but not really buying it.

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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Marky Dread wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 2:22pm
Today punk is just another fad or fashion of yesterday like Teddy Boys or Mods. The image of punk in modern society is no longer a shocking thing as it once was. It can be seen in high street fashion and it's graphics and colour sells everything from t shirts to breakfast cereals.
One author has argued that that's what happened with grunge. That is, in the 70s and most of the 80s, punk was treated as dangerous and hostile, and so depictions were nasty caricatures. By the time grunge came around, corporate powers figured out how to commercialize it all; don't demonize, monetize! Between that and the fracturing of the mainstream in general—we're just a bunch of niche markets now—has meant that the superficialities of punk have lost their power to shock. In a way, I'm good with that. I'm far more interested in punk as a way of thinking and how to treat others, which is more immune to commercialization.
I think if I was going to sum up what I consider punk to be then it's this.

Taking the hatred and turning it into a positive force.
I basically agree with that. I see it as asserting basic human worth, that a person doesn't need technical skill to have merit, that what we say has value, so when society shits on you for being a weirdo, take that as a reason to question those values and attitudes and assert your worth. Punk is a means of turning frustration and inadequacy into something that makes you just as important as anyone else.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 2:42pm
Marky Dread wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 2:22pm
Today punk is just another fad or fashion of yesterday like Teddy Boys or Mods. The image of punk in modern society is no longer a shocking thing as it once was. It can be seen in high street fashion and it's graphics and colour sells everything from t shirts to breakfast cereals.
One author has argued that that's what happened with grunge. That is, in the 70s and most of the 80s, punk was treated as dangerous and hostile, and so depictions were nasty caricatures. By the time grunge came around, corporate powers figured out how to commercialize it all; don't demonize, monetize! Between that and the fracturing of the mainstream in general—we're just a bunch of niche markets now—has meant that the superficialities of punk have lost their power to shock. In a way, I'm good with that. I'm far more interested in punk as a way of thinking and how to treat others, which is more immune to commercialization.
I think if I was going to sum up what I consider punk to be then it's this.

Taking the hatred and turning it into a positive force.
I basically agree with that. I see it as asserting basic human worth, that a person doesn't need technical skill to have merit, that what we say has value, so when society shits on you for being a weirdo, take that as a reason to question those values and attitudes and assert your worth. Punk is a means of turning frustration and inadequacy into something that makes you just as important as anyone else.
The shock value of punk has been totally absorbed and diluted. But then that value was not always a positive. I'm thinking of the swastika playing into the hands of the fascist brigades.

But the overall imagery has been totally accepted from your parents having long hair and flares to wearing much less conservative clothing. You can see the affects of punk design everywhere. The same thing happened with mod and pop art.

To your summing up of punk. Yes totally agree with your definition. Nobody is special and nobody is useless. Don't let your detractors hold you back. One of the positives about punk was it's ability to forge something with limited means.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Dr. Medulla
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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Marky Dread wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 3:15pm
The shock value of punk has been totally absorbed and diluted. But then that value was not always a positive. I'm thinking of the swastika playing into the hands of the fascist brigades.
The shock value—the superficialities—had value at first, for grabbing attention and showing defiance, but it didn't take long for it to become some kind of uniform, to show you were or weren't part of the club. Even leaving aside the notion that punk claims to be about individuality, proving yourself thru something so superficial as clothes or hair is dumb.

And, yeah, whatever the irony behind wearing a swastika, giving an opening to people who take it seriously is bad. Hell, I once had a hammer and sickle shirt—because I was "edgy," you see—that I now regret because it so blithely treats the horrors in Communist countries. Shock for the sake of shock is thin soup.
To your summing up of punk. Yes totally agree with your definition. Nobody is special and nobody is useless. Don't let your detractors hold you back. One of the positives about punk was it's ability to forge something with limited means.
Yup, that's exactly it: even if you lack technical musical skill or an unusual approach to expression, that doesn't mean you should be shamed or shut out. It's about lowering the price of admission, so to speak. People might reject what you say, but it shouldn't be because you don't have sufficient education or connections or any other advantage.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 3:30pm
Marky Dread wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 3:15pm
The shock value of punk has been totally absorbed and diluted. But then that value was not always a positive. I'm thinking of the swastika playing into the hands of the fascist brigades.
The shock value—the superficialities—had value at first, for grabbing attention and showing defiance, but it didn't take long for it to become some kind of uniform, to show you were or weren't part of the club. Even leaving aside the notion that punk claims to be about individuality, proving yourself thru something so superficial as clothes or hair is dumb.

And, yeah, whatever the irony behind wearing a swastika, giving an opening to people who take it seriously is bad. Hell, I once had a hammer and sickle shirt—because I was "edgy," you see—that I now regret because it so blithely treats the horrors in Communist countries. Shock for the sake of shock is thin soup.
To your summing up of punk. Yes totally agree with your definition. Nobody is special and nobody is useless. Don't let your detractors hold you back. One of the positives about punk was it's ability to forge something with limited means.
Yup, that's exactly it: even if you lack technical musical skill or an unusual approach to expression, that doesn't mean you should be shamed or shut out. It's about lowering the price of admission, so to speak. People might reject what you say, but it shouldn't be because you don't have sufficient education or connections or any other advantage.
😎👌
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Kory
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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Marky Dread wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 3:15pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 2:42pm
Marky Dread wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 2:22pm
Today punk is just another fad or fashion of yesterday like Teddy Boys or Mods. The image of punk in modern society is no longer a shocking thing as it once was. It can be seen in high street fashion and it's graphics and colour sells everything from t shirts to breakfast cereals.
One author has argued that that's what happened with grunge. That is, in the 70s and most of the 80s, punk was treated as dangerous and hostile, and so depictions were nasty caricatures. By the time grunge came around, corporate powers figured out how to commercialize it all; don't demonize, monetize! Between that and the fracturing of the mainstream in general—we're just a bunch of niche markets now—has meant that the superficialities of punk have lost their power to shock. In a way, I'm good with that. I'm far more interested in punk as a way of thinking and how to treat others, which is more immune to commercialization.
I think if I was going to sum up what I consider punk to be then it's this.

Taking the hatred and turning it into a positive force.
I basically agree with that. I see it as asserting basic human worth, that a person doesn't need technical skill to have merit, that what we say has value, so when society shits on you for being a weirdo, take that as a reason to question those values and attitudes and assert your worth. Punk is a means of turning frustration and inadequacy into something that makes you just as important as anyone else.
The shock value of punk has been totally absorbed and diluted. But then that value was not always a positive. I'm thinking of the swastika playing into the hands of the fascist brigades.

But the overall imagery has been totally accepted from your parents having long hair and flares to wearing much less conservative clothing. You can see the affects of punk design everywhere. The same thing happened with mod and pop art.

To your summing up of punk. Yes totally agree with your definition. Nobody is special and nobody is useless. Don't let your detractors hold you back. One of the positives about punk was it's ability to forge something with limited means.
By the time I came to it, it was just "look at these silly kids and their silly fads." Although my mom still wouldn't let me dye my hair green or anything like that. I think it was threatening at certain levels, but not nearly what it should have been. Although I certainly had to defend being a fan of 1977 around my skate-punk friends. Are punks just like the left, constantly eating each other?
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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Kory wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 10:16pm
Are punks just like the left, constantly eating each other?
Not quite as vicious, I don't think, but there is certainly that element of purer than thou and accusations of betrayal for heterodox thinking.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Sep 2021, 6:23am
Kory wrote:
16 Sep 2021, 10:16pm
Are punks just like the left, constantly eating each other?
Not quite as vicious, I don't think, but there is certainly that element of purer than thou and accusations of betrayal for heterodox thinking.
This started here with the snobbery of the London clique. The Bromley contingent and so on. Like this is our little gang and you want to join.

Lydon was different though his belief was accept everyone all the misfits etc.

Paul Weller sang this in "Sounds from the Street"

"I know I come from Woking and you say I'm a fraud
But my heart's in the city, where it belongs"

For all the positives of punk there were as many negatives and a whole bunch of bullshit and stupidity. Very few of our punk heroes come out unscathed. Even Joe with his dumb stalinist view on dropping all his old friends and the completey absurd year zero crap.

Again Weller was on the ball with this lyric from "All Around the World"

"You can't dismiss what's gone before
there just foundations for us to explore"

And this...

"What's the point in saying destroy
I want a new life for everywhere".
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Punk has always had a Randian type of problem. Randian philosophy emphasizes the primacy of the individual and selfish to an insane degree, yet in practice they're a bunch of lunatic tribalists ready to excommunicate heretics. Punk more generally also elevates individual self-expression, being your own true person. Which sounds great and what attracts many of us to it all. But in practice, people are tribal enough to set up boundaries on what is allowed if you want to be part of a group. Which again is sensible—group identification does require restrictions and expectations, boundaries to organize us. But to those people who disagree with this group rule or that, they'll revert to "a true punk wouldn't say that" (which, ironically, is itself an assertion of restrictions and expectations). We inevitably get stuck in the notion of wanting to be able to express our own interests with minimal restrictions, but get our nose out of joint when others do the same in ways contrary to ours. Like less insane Randians. Does it make us hypocrites or is it just an impossible ideal that we need to stop using as a weapon against those we disagree with? Better to be mature and realize that there is no pure state and that we're always going to be compromising and seeking to balance group and self interest.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Sep 2021, 7:51am
Punk has always had a Randian type of problem. Randian philosophy emphasizes the primacy of the individual and selfish to an insane degree, yet in practice they're a bunch of lunatic tribalists ready to excommunicate heretics. Punk more generally also elevates individual self-expression, being your own true person. Which sounds great and what attracts many of us to it all. But in practice, people are tribal enough to set up boundaries on what is allowed if you want to be part of a group. Which again is sensible—group identification does require restrictions and expectations, boundaries to organize us. But to those people who disagree with this group rule or that, they'll revert to "a true punk wouldn't say that" (which, ironically, is itself an assertion of restrictions and expectations). We inevitably get stuck in the notion of wanting to be able to express our own interests with minimal restrictions, but get our nose out of joint when others do the same in ways contrary to ours. Like less insane Randians. Does it make us hypocrites or is it just an impossible ideal that we need to stop using as a weapon against those we disagree with? Better to be mature and realize that there is no pure state and that we're always going to be compromising and seeking to balance group and self interest.
Oh and don't forget we were just kids. ;)
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Dr. Medulla
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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread

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Marky Dread wrote:
17 Sep 2021, 9:08am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Sep 2021, 7:51am
Punk has always had a Randian type of problem. Randian philosophy emphasizes the primacy of the individual and selfish to an insane degree, yet in practice they're a bunch of lunatic tribalists ready to excommunicate heretics. Punk more generally also elevates individual self-expression, being your own true person. Which sounds great and what attracts many of us to it all. But in practice, people are tribal enough to set up boundaries on what is allowed if you want to be part of a group. Which again is sensible—group identification does require restrictions and expectations, boundaries to organize us. But to those people who disagree with this group rule or that, they'll revert to "a true punk wouldn't say that" (which, ironically, is itself an assertion of restrictions and expectations). We inevitably get stuck in the notion of wanting to be able to express our own interests with minimal restrictions, but get our nose out of joint when others do the same in ways contrary to ours. Like less insane Randians. Does it make us hypocrites or is it just an impossible ideal that we need to stop using as a weapon against those we disagree with? Better to be mature and realize that there is no pure state and that we're always going to be compromising and seeking to balance group and self interest.
Oh and don't forget we were just kids. ;)
Ha! The cool thing about being a kid is falling in love so easily, with people and ideas and causes. Growing up is realizing, even appreciating, contradictions. And maturity is working with those realities to still achieve something good.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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