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Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 1:22pm
by Dr. Medulla
Flex wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 1:12pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 12:55pm
That's not really what we're doing, tho, is it?
It is! But that's okay, I don't think those guys really care. As I said, it can make my eye twitch too when I hear matt talk about how he doesn't know what any classic punk album covers look like and stuff.
I guess I hadn't really thought specifically about what it takes to call yourself a fan of a band. maybe I'm being too simple, but If someone likes a band's music a lot, I think they can justifiably call themselves big fans. I'm not sure what other extracurricular material is required, per se.
I'd say your barrier for fandom is a lot lower than mine. To me, it's more than enjoying a song or several songs, but seeking contextual knowledge about those songs. That's the extra step for fandom—that it's more than just music. The amount of knowledge and critical attitudes is where you get to all those levels of True Fandom™ and pecking orders. I like, say, a number of Depeche Mode songs, but I don't know much about the history of the band, so I wouldn't call myself a fan. Jen is a DM fan because she does have that knowledge and values it.
Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 1:27pm
by Flex
Destroy Fandom Heirarchy! All power to the poseurs!
Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 1:30pm
by Wolter
Flex wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 1:27pm
Destroy Fandom Heirarchy! All power to the poseurs!
Certainly would’ve made the first few years of punk (the “fake it til you make it” years) easier.
Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 1:31pm
by Flex
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 1:22pm
Flex wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 1:12pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 12:55pm
That's not really what we're doing, tho, is it?
It is! But that's okay, I don't think those guys really care. As I said, it can make my eye twitch too when I hear matt talk about how he doesn't know what any classic punk album covers look like and stuff.
I guess I hadn't really thought specifically about what it takes to call yourself a fan of a band. maybe I'm being too simple, but If someone likes a band's music a lot, I think they can justifiably call themselves big fans. I'm not sure what other extracurricular material is required, per se.
I'd say your barrier for fandom is a lot lower than mine. To me, it's more than enjoying a song or several songs, but seeking contextual knowledge about those songs. That's the extra step for fandom—that it's more than just music. The amount of knowledge and critical attitudes is where you get to all those levels of True Fandom™ and pecking orders. I like, say, a number of Depeche Mode songs, but I don't know much about the history of the band, so I wouldn't call myself a fan. Jen is a DM fan because she does have that knowledge and values it.
So, to be clear, in my personal predilections I'm more inclined to your position: when a band really excites me I deep dive and so forth. But I don't think that's the only way to be, and I think the proof is sort of in the pudding: matt co-founded almost inarguably the best thing to happen to punk culture in like the last 2 decades and he did with a passion that is broad but shallow. How does that not count as fandom?
Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 1:43pm
by Wolter
I think there’s a definitely a clear divide between anorak obsessive as and people who just really like things and enjoy experiencing them and poplar English language gives us a single word for both, so the argument over this is probably not resolvable.
Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 1:45pm
by Dr. Medulla
Flex wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 1:31pm
So, to be clear, in my personal predilections I'm more inclined to your position: when a band really excites me I deep dive and so forth. But I don't think that's the only way to be, and I think the proof is sort of in the pudding: matt co-founded almost inarguably the best thing to happen to punk culture in like the last 2 decades and he did with a passion that is broad but shallow. How does that not count as fandom?
But the pieces that run in THT, when they reference specific artists, *do* show that contextual knowledge, and that knowledge is required for the humour to work. I've come across articles where I know zilch about the band being poked at and the joke goes over my head. Likewise, when pieces mock idiosyncrasies of genres or of musicians, that requires specific knowledge. If the contributors were fundamentally ignorant about the artists or genres they write about, it wouldn't work at all.
Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 1:47pm
by Dr. Medulla
Wolter wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 1:43pm
I think there’s a definitely a clear divide between anorak obsessive as and people who just really like things and enjoy experiencing them and poplar English language gives us a single word for both, so the argument over this is probably not resolvable.
If so, it's because the concept of fan has been sapped of its significance. Kind of like the entertainment media regularly refers to actors not as actors but as stars. Everyone is a star! It's an inflation that impoverishes language.
Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 1:55pm
by Flex
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 1:45pm
But the pieces that run in THT, when they reference specific artists, *do* show that contextual knowledge, and that knowledge is required for the humour to work. I've come across articles where I know zilch about the band being poked at and the joke goes over my head. Likewise, when pieces mock idiosyncrasies of genres or of musicians, that requires specific knowledge. If the contributors were fundamentally ignorant about the artists or genres they write about, it wouldn't work at all.
I'd say matt, like everyone, is more selectively ignorant. He has lots of keen and funny observations about scene culture (and straight edge, particularly, since he's straight edge himself) and music trends and so forth. Again, it just seems funny to me that we're saying he can't call himself a fan of a band because he doesn't know a few specific bits of trivia. I feel like I'm 15 years old again and bagging on some of my friends for not knowing op ivy was tim armstrong's old band (high and mighty guy that I was for learning this fact like 3 months earlier).
Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 2:12pm
by Dr. Medulla
Flex wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 1:55pm
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 1:45pm
But the pieces that run in THT, when they reference specific artists, *do* show that contextual knowledge, and that knowledge is required for the humour to work. I've come across articles where I know zilch about the band being poked at and the joke goes over my head. Likewise, when pieces mock idiosyncrasies of genres or of musicians, that requires specific knowledge. If the contributors were fundamentally ignorant about the artists or genres they write about, it wouldn't work at all.
I'd say matt, like everyone, is more selectively ignorant. He has lots of keen and funny observations about scene culture (and straight edge, particularly, since he's straight edge himself) and music trends and so forth. Again, it just seems funny to me that we're saying he can't call himself a fan of a band because he doesn't know a few specific bits of trivia. I feel like I'm 15 years old again and bagging on some of my friends for not knowing op ivy was tim armstrong's old band (high and mighty guy that I was for learning this fact like 3 months earlier).
I'd be completely with you except the actual example at work here is a seriously low level of knowledge. It ain't knowing who was the drummer before Peligro or the second guitarist they had at the start. If you know Jello was in the DKs, it ain't some True Fan victory to also know the other guys. That's why I don't think we're being smug dicks or anything here. I won't dump on someone who doesn't know that the Beatles once included Stu Sutcliffe and Pete Best, but if you don't know George Harrison was in the band, I don't think you have any claim to calling yourself a Beatles fan. That's low-level stuff to me, and if you can't pass it, nope.
edit: Apologies if I seem aggressive in any way, but the nature of fandom is a big component in my popular music-related teaching. So this kind of discussion lights up key parts of my brain.
Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 2:29pm
by Flex
East Bay Ray isn't a household name with a substantial career outside DK tho, and outside the lawsuit he has no meaningful public footprint. I don't think it's at all weird to not know his name if your exposure to the band has mostly come in the form of mp3 listening. Jello has multiple bands, a successful spoken word solo act under his own name, and runs one the most important record labels in the scene. The chances of you hearing his name and learning who he is are an order of magnitude higher than a punk guitarist who most people who follow these things agree was just a hired gun for Jello's creativity. East Bay Ray just isn't a household name comparatively (he really is more like knowing stu sutcliffe than george harrison in the public imagination, I think).
Again, it's not really how I follow music I really like, but I just think you can be a fan of the dead kennedys music if you really like listening to it, is still my basic point. And probably the end of me having anything worthwhile to say on the topic.
Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 2:32pm
by Dr. Medulla
Flex wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 2:29pm
East Bay Ray isn't a household name with a substantial career outside DK tho, and outside the lawsuit he has no meaningful public footprint. I don't think it's at all weird to not know his name if your exposure to the band has mostly come in the form of mp3 listening. Jello has multiple bands, a successful spoken word solo act under his own name, and runs one the most important record labels in the scene. The chances of you hearing his name and learning who he is are an order of magnitude higher than a punk guitarist who most people who follow these things agree was just a hired gun for Jello's creativity. East Bay Ray just isn't a household name comparatively (he really is more like knowing stu sutcliffe than george harrison in the public imagination, I think).
Again, it's not really how I follow music I really like, but I just think you can be a fan of the dead kennedys music if you really like listening to it, is still my basic point. And probably the end of me having anything worthwhile to say on the topic.
Okay, cool (and see my edit above re. the discussion). Tho I still come back to it being a matter of calling yourself a fan. I don't expect the general public to know who Ray is (or Jello, for that matter). But if you say you're a DK fan, you're asserting something more exclusive than the general public.
Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 2:38pm
by Olaf
Wait, you're calling the soundtrack to Sharknado 3 "not substantial?"
Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 2:43pm
by Flex
Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 2:12pm
edit: Apologies if I seem aggressive in any way, but the nature of fandom is a big component in my popular music-related teaching. So this kind of discussion lights up key parts of my brain.
Yeah, no worries man. I don't feel even slightly aggressed against. I in turn just don't wanna come off as too snide or dismissive, so wanted to put on an exit ramp before things get too circular for my part.
Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 2:44pm
by Dr. Medulla
Olaf wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 2:38pm
Wait, you're calling the soundtrack to Sharknado 3 "not substantial?"
Now that's True Fan-level knowledge!
Re: The Mighty Musical Observations Thread
Posted: 28 Mar 2021, 2:45pm
by Flex
Olaf wrote: ↑28 Mar 2021, 2:38pm
Wait, you're calling the soundtrack to Sharknado 3 "not substantial?"
You're right, my bad. Critical work from EBR