The Great Thread of YouTube Magnificence!

[Dr. Medulla]

I'd argue that as her cultural significance has waned that the critical assessment of her music has also waned. Would an album like Madame X had gotten better reviews in 1989 versus 2019? I'd think so.

I suspect so. Or it'd be trashed by contrary critics taking a stand against her media image. That's double-edged sword of her self-promotion—she forced critics to take bold stands on what they thought she represented, and figured out how the music fit in with that. The Beatles did the same thing. Hard to consider the Sex Pistols divorced from their notoriety (and, tellingly, when considering the music alone, more than a few conclude that Bollocks is more of a hard rock record than punk, the way other punk bands sounded).

Which culminated with "Erotica" and "Sex" in the early 90's. She crossed the line from being provocative to being boorish. "Like a Prayer" was provocative (and a great song), but her book was over-hyped and ridiculous.

There's an argument to be made that, yeah, what launched her to fame became a defeating treadmill a decade on, whereby she had to constantly reinvent and push her ability to shock. And she either couldn't keep it up or the public mood had changed sufficiently, so what was once risqué and raising valuable questions about a feminist gaze and autonomy became, as you suggest, boorish. And maybe she got tired of it, too—she became a mother and moved to Hestonia.

[Dr. Medulla]

In all honesty it all seemed like pretty decent pop music to me. While Doc highlighting the goddamn awful cover of "American Pie" only really illustrates what a great run of singles Maddie has had. I'm only really familiar with Cyndi's stuff from the 80s which is great I'm sure she's had a few turkeys also.

Right—I'm certainly not making the claim that CL's body of work is consistently amazing. I only know the stuff from the 80s, too. But I stand by CL's peak being more appealing, musically and "ideologically," than Madonna's peak. And I don't doubt for a second that I'd much rather spend an afternoon chatting with CL than Madonna.

[drowninghere]

Best Madonna for me by far was the Ray of Light and Music singles and the Beautiful Stranger single (all between '98 - '00). Some of the 80s stuff was certainly good/great pop music, but these singles were quality music period. All when she was about 40 - 42 and all after about 7 -8 years of some really weak stuff (Justify My Love, Erotica, Don't Call Me Argentina and the Bedtime Stories era of say 90 - 97). It was a great comeback for her and, to me, really cemented her legacy.

With respect to Cindy Lauper, I think we are overrating her outsider/alternative cred a touch. She was extremely popular at her peak and, quite frankly, disappeared entirely after that. No doubt a quality person by all appearances though.

[Flex]

Didn't every single song on the first side of she's so unusual chart or something? Great record. I know some oh her later stuff, it definitely continues the "I'll just follow my muse" spirit that doc is referring to, dipping into blues, country & Western, folk, lounge singing and the like. tho I think she's only been modestly successful since the 80s, she's probably on balance putting out more interesting albums (to me) than Madonna even if the latter's best singles are obviously superior as pop confections.

[Dr. Medulla]

With respect to Cindy Lauper, I think we are overrating her outsider/alternative cred a touch. She was extremely popular at her peak and, quite frankly, disappeared entirely after that. No doubt a quality person by all appearances though.

She was definitely mainstream popular and never recaptured the success of She's So Unusual, but whether intentionally or not, she promoted values and aesthetics that punk and other outsider forms identified with, and so made it more acceptable to look weird. It's the fact that she had mainstream success at that point that makes her so important, I'd say. I don't think she was co-opting anything as she was always eccentric in her tastes, as I understand it. But when I see a band like We've Got a Fuzzbox and We're Gonna Use It:


… who also presented an image of girls flat out having fun and looking unfeminine in any conventional way, there's an important link between CL and a branch of feminist expression.

[Marky Dread]

With respect to Cindy Lauper, I think we are overrating her outsider/alternative cred a touch. She was extremely popular at her peak and, quite frankly, disappeared entirely after that. No doubt a quality person by all appearances though.

She was definitely mainstream popular and never recaptured the success of She's So Unusual, but whether intentionally or not, she promoted values and aesthetics that punk and other outsider forms identified with, and so made it more acceptable to look weird. It's the fact that she had mainstream success at that point that makes her so important, I'd say. I don't think she was co-opting anything as she was always eccentric in her tastes, as I understand it. But when I see a band like We've Got a Fuzzbox and We're Gonna Use It:


… who also presented an image of girls flat out having fun and looking unfeminine in any conventional way, there's an important link between CL and a branch of feminist expression.

Admit it you just like posting images of pretty girls from the 80s.

[Dr. Medulla]

Admit it you just like posting images of pretty girls from the 80s.

Cool-looking girls who are part of my larger argument, sure. But I remembering when I learned about Fuzzbox in an issue of Spin. I thought they were super cool looking, but also reminded me of CL. Just a glorious explosion of colour and seemingly random clothes. And it's perhaps telling that Fuzzbox's music was also about fun and not having social restrictions. Not saying there's a conscious connection going on, but the visual component might be significantly tied to the music.

[Marky Dread]

Admit it you just like posting images of pretty girls from the 80s.

Cool-looking girls who are part of my larger argument, sure. But I remembering when I learned about Fuzzbox in an issue of Spin. I thought they were super cool looking, but also reminded me of CL. Just a glorious explosion of colour and seemingly random clothes. And it's perhaps telling that Fuzzbox's music was also about fun and not having social restrictions. Not saying there's a conscious connection going on, but the visual component might be significantly tied to the music.

Yep I guess so but that might be a sideways disservice to The B52s and The Go-Gos.

[Dr. Medulla]

Admit it you just like posting images of pretty girls from the 80s.

Cool-looking girls who are part of my larger argument, sure. But I remembering when I learned about Fuzzbox in an issue of Spin. I thought they were super cool looking, but also reminded me of CL. Just a glorious explosion of colour and seemingly random clothes. And it's perhaps telling that Fuzzbox's music was also about fun and not having social restrictions. Not saying there's a conscious connection going on, but the visual component might be significantly tied to the music.

Yep I guess so but that might be a sideways disservice to The B52s and The Go-Gos.

How so? That is, I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not sure of your objection.

[Marky Dread]

Admit it you just like posting images of pretty girls from the 80s.

Cool-looking girls who are part of my larger argument, sure. But I remembering when I learned about Fuzzbox in an issue of Spin. I thought they were super cool looking, but also reminded me of CL. Just a glorious explosion of colour and seemingly random clothes. And it's perhaps telling that Fuzzbox's music was also about fun and not having social restrictions. Not saying there's a conscious connection going on, but the visual component might be significantly tied to the music.

Yep I guess so but that might be a sideways disservice to The B52s and The Go-Gos.

How so? That is, I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not sure of your objection.

No objection at all. Who influenced Cyndi, those two come to mind. With Fuzzbox they look more like The Lauper image from the second album onwards when they became more pop and polished. But no I'm not disagreeing in any way.

[drowninghere]

With respect to Cindy Lauper, I think we are overrating her outsider/alternative cred a touch. She was extremely popular at her peak and, quite frankly, disappeared entirely after that. No doubt a quality person by all appearances though.

She was definitely mainstream popular and never recaptured the success of She's So Unusual, but whether intentionally or not, she promoted values and aesthetics that punk and other outsider forms identified with, and so made it more acceptable to look weird. It's the fact that she had mainstream success at that point that makes her so important, I'd say. I don't think she was co-opting anything as she was always eccentric in her tastes, as I understand it. But when I see a band like We've Got a Fuzzbox and We're Gonna Use It:


… who also presented an image of girls flat out having fun and looking unfeminine in any conventional way, there's an important link between CL and a branch of feminist expression.

Good points all

[Dr. Medulla]

Admit it you just like posting images of pretty girls from the 80s.

Cool-looking girls who are part of my larger argument, sure. But I remembering when I learned about Fuzzbox in an issue of Spin. I thought they were super cool looking, but also reminded me of CL. Just a glorious explosion of colour and seemingly random clothes. And it's perhaps telling that Fuzzbox's music was also about fun and not having social restrictions. Not saying there's a conscious connection going on, but the visual component might be significantly tied to the music.

Yep I guess so but that might be a sideways disservice to The B52s and The Go-Gos.

How so? That is, I'm not disagreeing, but I'm not sure of your objection.

No objection at all. Who influenced Cyndi, those two come to mind. With Fuzzbox they look more like The Lauper image from the second album onwards when they became more pop and polished. But no I'm not disagreeing in any way.

Who influenced Cyndi? I don't know. She must have been aware of punk and new wave and found some of the looks appealing, but that's a guess. Fuzzbox kinda mirror the Go-Go's in terms of look. Early punk Go-Go's was that typical punk collection of unconventional hair and clothes, but by the time they broke they were cleaned up for mass consumption, much like Fuzzbox for their second album (or Ladies and Gentlemen, the Fabulous Stains, in their original appearance and then at the end when they get made over).

[101Walterton]

Crazy For You brings back some errrr happy memories

[Marky Dread]

Crazy For You brings back some errrr happy memories

Not another one of your Big Country stories I hope.

[101Walterton]

Crazy For You brings back some errrr happy memories

Not another one of your Big Country stories I hope.

Yeah but without the dark sinister undertones of a BBC stalker murder mini series.