The Black Flag Thread

[CorwoodRep]

I listen to those demos probably more than their released albums.

[eumaas]

Everyone thought the record was awful

Well, they were wrong.

Perhaps. But I'll tell you right now what I think the problem was- the shitty vinyl mastering. We were all used to listening to BF on 45s and the LP had no mid or low at all. Maybe later pressings fixed that. Ironically the same thing happened with This is Boston- the master tapes were phenomenal and it all sounded like squirrels fighting on vinyl. Personally, I prefer all of those songs with Dez, but that's just me.

Shitty sound and SST go hand in hand, unfortunately.

All the pre-Hank vocalists were great punk/hardcore vocalists, but Henry commited to the Ginn lyrics in ways that Dez just didn't. Henry never held anything back. Reminds me of Jacques Brel in that regard.

Interesting. The only problem was that Black Flag vanished for what was essentially an eternity after Damaged and the scene just carried on without them. I'd say Minor Threat took their place. And when BF came back they were essentially the New Stooges at a time when Boston Hardcore was getting extremely reductionist and puritanical. It's funny- I remember My War came out the same day the tickets for Clash II @ Providence went onsale. Strangely enough, I remember the punks at Newbury Comics that day being a lot more excited about the Clash. Go figure.

Sure. I agree about the leading hardcore thing.

One thing I've noticed about Flag, though, is that aside from Damaged, all of their albums are transitional. I think you can put that in the context of them being unstable in general--unstable audience, unstable lineup, etc. They were always looking for something else.

I'll take this opportunity to claim that BF were more successful at experimentation (speaking here of studio not live) while maintaining an identity than the Clash were. On the level of the music, Ginn's guitar is completely distinctive, so even when you have relatively conventional metal riffage going on, as in Loose Nut, you still have all his feedback squeals and atonality (and that's the actual proper use of that--no tonal center) going on underneath. Even his solo on "Bastard in Love," probably the most conventional, tonal solo of his Flag career, is undeniably bent. One might ascribe that to his perhaps being incompetent, but that seems irrelevant to me--one can make good art in spite of oneself. Lyrically, while you have the transition into ironic (or not) party band lyrics, like its apogee on Loose Nut, you still have that core of emotional distress and psychosis characteristic of the Damaged era--with the rocknroll party band pose taking up the mantle of the funny (but the joke's on you) Flag songs (TV Party, Six Pack), though less successfully maybe.

[IkarisOne]

Interesting. The only problem was that Black Flag vanished for what was essentially an eternity after Damaged and the scene just carried on without them. I'd say Minor Threat took their place. And when BF came back they were essentially the New Stooges at a time when Boston Hardcore was getting extremely reductionist and puritanical. It's funny- I remember My War came out the same day the tickets for Clash II @ Providence went onsale. Strangely enough, I remember the punks at Newbury Comics that day being a lot more excited about the Clash. Go figure.

What do you think of the '82 Demos? To me that's some of the greatest punk ever committed to tape, it's a shame it has never been officially released.

Yeah. I think Black Flag and the Clash had more in common than we might guess. Both bands were experiential propositions. Look at this way- you take a tiger and put it in a zoo it's not going to act all tigery for you. It's going to lie around and yawn and lick its balls. That's pretty much how I look at Clash records, maybe in some ways BF records too. It's jolly hard work recording loud guitar music properly and putting out a record every other week or so doesn't do much for quality control. And it's very hard getting the adrenaline going without the crowd scaring the shit out of you.

[Flex]

Great take eumaas. I'll just say that I don't think Ginn's playing resulted from incompetence, based on some of what he'd done after the band as well as his interviews, etc. He may have a limited skillset, but my impression is he's very crafty about knowing how to push the limits of what he can do successfully.

Addendum: And interesting parallels with the Clash, IkarisOne.

[eumaas]

Interesting. The only problem was that Black Flag vanished for what was essentially an eternity after Damaged and the scene just carried on without them. I'd say Minor Threat took their place. And when BF came back they were essentially the New Stooges at a time when Boston Hardcore was getting extremely reductionist and puritanical. It's funny- I remember My War came out the same day the tickets for Clash II @ Providence went onsale. Strangely enough, I remember the punks at Newbury Comics that day being a lot more excited about the Clash. Go figure.

What do you think of the '82 Demos? To me that's some of the greatest punk ever committed to tape, it's a shame it has never been officially released.

Yeah. I think Black Flag and the Clash had more in common than we might guess. Both bands were experiential propositions. Look at this way- you take a tiger and put it in a zoo it's not going to act all tigery for you. It's going to lie around and yawn and lick its balls. That's pretty much how I look at Clash records, maybe in some ways BF records too. It's jolly hard work recording loud guitar music properly and putting out a record every other week or so doesn't do much for quality control. And it's very hard getting the adrenaline going without the crowd scaring the shit out of you.

I do think it's a shame that BF weren't ever properly recorded. But I still think their records retained more of the balls of their music than the Clash--when BF is bad, it's not them doing calypso music, it's often them pushing the experimental envelope a little too far.

[eumaas]

Great take Gene. I'll just say that I don't think Ginn's playing resulted from incompetence, based on some of what he'd done after the band as well as his interviews, etc. He may have a limited skillset, but my impression is he's very crafty about knowing how to push the limits of what he can do successfully.

Yeah. Whether he sucks in a conventional sense doesn't really matter to me. Brotzmann might suck by Michael Brecker's standards, but I'd rather own Brotzmann than Brecker CDs.

[IkarisOne]

Well, they were wrong.

Perhaps. But I'll tell you right now what I think the problem was- the shitty vinyl mastering. We were all used to listening to BF on 45s and the LP had no mid or low at all. Maybe later pressings fixed that. Ironically the same thing happened with This is Boston- the master tapes were phenomenal and it all sounded like squirrels fighting on vinyl. Personally, I prefer all of those songs with Dez, but that's just me.

Shitty sound and SST go hand in hand, unfortunately.

All the pre-Hank vocalists were great punk/hardcore vocalists, but Henry commited to the Ginn lyrics in ways that Dez just didn't. Henry never held anything back. Reminds me of Jacques Brel in that regard.

Interesting. The only problem was that Black Flag vanished for what was essentially an eternity after Damaged and the scene just carried on without them. I'd say Minor Threat took their place. And when BF came back they were essentially the New Stooges at a time when Boston Hardcore was getting extremely reductionist and puritanical. It's funny- I remember My War came out the same day the tickets for Clash II @ Providence went onsale. Strangely enough, I remember the punks at Newbury Comics that day being a lot more excited about the Clash. Go figure.

Sure. I agree about the leading hardcore thing.

One thing I've noticed about Flag, though, is that aside from Damaged, all of their albums are transitional. I think you can put that in the context of them being unstable in general--unstable audience, unstable lineup, etc. They were always looking for something else.

I'll take this opportunity to claim that BF were more successful at experimentation (speaking here of studio not live) while maintaining an identity than the Clash were. On the level of the music, Ginn's guitar is completely distinctive, so even when you have relatively conventional metal riffage going on, as in Loose Nut, you still have all his feedback squeals and atonality (and that's the actual proper use of that--no tonal center) going on underneath. Even his solo on "Bastard in Love," probably the most conventional, tonal solo of his Flag career, is undeniably bent. One might ascribe that to his perhaps being incompetent, but that seems irrelevant to me--one can make good art in spite of oneself. Lyrically, while you have the transition into ironic (or not) party band lyrics, like its apogee on Loose Nut, you still have that core of emotional distress and psychosis characteristic of the Damaged era--with the rocknroll party band pose taking up the mantle of the funny (but the joke's on you) Flag songs (TV Party, Six Pack), though less successfully maybe.

Granted. But Ginn had two major problems- he couldn't keep a steady lineup (which inhibits great improv) and he didn't have the chops of a Vernon Reid to pull off his ideas. But I think he was a great punk songwriter.

[matedog]

Great, now I have to listen to a bunch of The Black Flag.

[Wolter]

Great, now I have to listen to a bunch of The Black Flag.

OF COURSE YOU DO. IT'S FUCKING BLACK FLAG WEEK!

[matedog]

Great, now I have to listen to a bunch of The Black Flag.

OF COURSE YOU DO. IT'S FUCKING BLACK FLAG WEEK!

The band? Or the flag?

[Flex]

Great, now I have to listen to a bunch of The Black Flag.

OF COURSE YOU DO. IT'S FUCKING BLACK FLAG WEEK!

The band? Or the flag?

The brand new musical! And you are starring as... the Hoy.

[matedog]

Great, now I have to listen to a bunch of The Black Flag.

OF COURSE YOU DO. IT'S FUCKING BLACK FLAG WEEK!

The band? Or the flag?

The brand new musical! And you are starring as... the Hoy.

It's the part I was born to play baby!

[Flex]

Oh god yes: http://www.myspace.com/blackfag

[Wolter]

Oh god yes: http://www.myspace.com/blackfag

WOOHOO!

[youtube][/youtube]

[Wolter]

[youtube][/youtube]


Sounds like the love child of Fred Schneider and Jello Biafra.


This is a good thing.