Bittersweet Symphony

[Dr. Medulla]

I'd also argue that a really good song needs no place and time.

That's suggestive of some kind of objective measure, which I don't subscribe to. It's all subjective and all rooted in historical context to me. It doesn't mean you have to have been there at the time to "get" a song, but there's nothing intrinsic to the song. We bring all kinds of things to whether he judge a song good or bad, and historical context (of the song, when we heard it, where we're at now) all kicks in to some degree.

[Marky Dread]

I'd also argue that a really good song needs no place and time.

That's suggestive of some kind of objective measure, which I don't subscribe to. It's all subjective and all rooted in historical context to me. It doesn't mean you have to have been there at the time to "get" a song, but there's nothing intrinsic to the song. We bring all kinds of things to whether he judge a song good or bad, and historical context (of the song, when we heard it, where we're at now) all kicks in to some degree.

Yeah I've got your back with this Doc. Songs I love are often formed by their place in history. God Save the Queen as a prime example or Two Tribes for another.

[Inder]

Bittersweet Symphony Verse-By-Verse SURVIVOR Poll

[Heston]

Bittersweet Symphony Verse-By-Verse SURVIVOR Poll

I can get behind this.

[Marky Dread]

Cause it's a bittersweet symphony this life
Trying to make ends meet, you're a slave to the money then you die.
I'll take you down the only road I've ever been down
You know the one that takes you to the places where all the veins meet, yeah.
No change, I can't change, I can't change, I can't change,
but I'm here in my mold, I am here in my mold.
But I'm a million different people from one day to the next
I can't change my mold, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
Well I never pray,
But tonight I'm on my knees, yeah.
I need to hear some sounds that recognize the pain in me, yeah.
I let the melody shine, let it cleanse my mind, I feel free now.
But the airwaves are clean and there's nobody singing to me now.
No change, I can't change, I can't change, I can't change,
But I'm here in my mold, I am here in my mold.
And I'm a million different people from one day to the next
I can't change my mold, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
Cause it's a bittersweet symphony this life.
Trying to make ends meet, trying to find some money then you die.
I'll take you down the only road I've ever been down
You know the one that takes you to the places where all the veins meet, yeah.
No change, I can't change, I can't change, I can't change,
but I'm here in my mold, I am here in my mold.
But I'm a million different people from one day to the next
I can't change my mold, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
I can't change my mold, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
I can't change my mold, no, no, no, no, no, no, no
It justs sex and violence melody and silence
It justs sex and violence melody and silence (I'll take you down the only road I've ever been down)
It's just sex and violence melody and silence
It's just sex and violence melody and silence
It's just sex and violence melody and silence (I'll take you down the only road I've ever been down)
(It's just sex and violence melody and silence)Been down
(Ever been down)
(Ever been down)
(Ever been down)
(Ever been down)
(Ever been down)

[revbob]

I'd also argue that a really good song needs no place and time.

That's suggestive of some kind of objective measure, which I don't subscribe to. It's all subjective and all rooted in historical context to me. It doesn't mean you have to have been there at the time to "get" a song, but there's nothing intrinsic to the song. We bring all kinds of things to whether he judge a song good or bad, and historical context (of the song, when we heard it, where we're at now) all kicks in to some degree.

Yeah I've got your back with this Doc. Songs I love are often formed by their place in history. God Save the Queen as a prime example or Two Tribes for another.

Well I'm not saying a good song cant have a place and time. Your example for instance. I was 10 when God Save the Queen came out. I was probably only starting to form my own feelings/opinions on music at that time. Clearly it was a song of it's time but it still resonates and stirs emotions 40 years later. I find the Dead Kennedys and Jello did/do timely songs but the message can still resonate today and perhaps that's a bad thing as we as a society haven't progressed as much as we should have. Fight the Power by Public Enemy was pretty big when it came out but it still holds meaning for a kid hearing it for the first time. Where am I going with this well maybe I misinterpreted what 101 was saying but if a song only holds up because of its place in time when it was released then I defer to what Wolter said. Which leads to an ongoing discussion I've been having with my son. He argues with his classmates about music all the time, many of them are clearly influenced by their parents why else would a teenager in 2019 think Uptown Girl by Bill Joel is a "classic". Its really not a good song and for a 15 to it has no meaning but a parent of these kids attaches a place and time to that song and seems it a classic.

[Dr. Medulla]

Well I'm not saying a good song cant have a place and time. Your example for instance. I was 10 when God Save the Queen came out. I was probably only starting to form my own feelings/opinions on music at that time. Clearly it was a song of it's time but it still resonates and stirs emotions 40 years later. I find the Dead Kennedys and Jello did/do timely songs but the message can still resonate today and perhaps that's a bad thing as we as a society haven't progressed as much as we should have. Fight the Power by Public Enemy was pretty big when it came out but it still holds meaning for a kid hearing it for the first time. Where am I going with this well maybe I misinterpreted what 101 was saying but if a song only holds up because of its place in time when it was released then I defer to what Wolter said. Which leads to an ongoing discussion I've been having with my son. He argues with his classmates about music all the time, many of them are clearly influenced by their parents why else would a teenager in 2019 think Uptown Girl by Bill Joel is a "classic". Its really not a good song and for a 15 to it has no meaning but a parent of these kids attaches a place and time to that song and seems it a classic.

But why can't a primary reason a person likes a song be the emotional response it generates, taking you to a time and place and state of mind? Isn't art supposed to work like that, stirring our emotions? It doesn't have to work for everyone that way, but for those who associate a song with when their kid was born, say, sure, it's legit for them to say it's a great song. It's that interaction of listener, song, and circumstance that establishes the value. Maybe before that the song didn't move the person one way or another, but its place in a particular moment transforms its worth and future appreciation.

("Uptown Girl"? Good lord. Go find your own generation's shitty music, kids, and let mine die.)

edit: I wonder, perhaps, if we're disagreeing on what the hypothetical question being posed is. I'm arguing from the position of someone saying, "Why do you think that song is good?" My position wouldn't work if the question were instead, "Why do you think I should like that song?" As personal justification, pretty much anything goes; if it's about persuasion, appealing to an experience the person never had is likely a no-go.

[Marky Dread]

Well I'm not saying a good song cant have a place and time. Your example for instance. I was 10 when God Save the Queen came out. I was probably only starting to form my own feelings/opinions on music at that time. Clearly it was a song of it's time but it still resonates and stirs emotions 40 years later. I find the Dead Kennedys and Jello did/do timely songs but the message can still resonate today and perhaps that's a bad thing as we as a society haven't progressed as much as we should have. Fight the Power by Public Enemy was pretty big when it came out but it still holds meaning for a kid hearing it for the first time. Where am I going with this well maybe I misinterpreted what 101 was saying but if a song only holds up because of its place in time when it was released then I defer to what Wolter said. Which leads to an ongoing discussion I've been having with my son. He argues with his classmates about music all the time, many of them are clearly influenced by their parents why else would a teenager in 2019 think Uptown Girl by Bill Joel is a "classic". Its really not a good song and for a 15 to it has no meaning but a parent of these kids attaches a place and time to that song and seems it a classic.

But why can't a primary reason a person likes a song be the emotional response it generates, taking you to a time and place and state of mind? Isn't art supposed to work like that, stirring our emotions? It doesn't have to work for everyone that way, but for those who associate a song with when their kid was born, say, sure, it's legit for them to say it's a great song. It's that interaction of listener, song, and circumstance that establishes the value. Maybe before that the song didn't move the person one way or another, but its place in a particular moment transforms its worth and future appreciation.

("Uptown Girl"? Good lord. Go find your own generation's shitty music, kids, and let mine die.)

edit: I wonder, perhaps, if we're disagreeing on what the hypothetical question being posed is. I'm arguing from the position of someone saying, "Why do you think that song is good?" My position wouldn't work if the question were instead, "Why do you think I should like that song?" As personal justification, pretty much anything goes; if it's about persuasion, appealing to an experience the person never had is likely a no-go.

Yeah when it comes to a song of meaning for someone that signifies an event like a birth, death or favourite summer etc. The song can be a classic or even a complete piece of crap but it just brings back a great or bad memory. Association with a great time might make someone think more favourably of a poor song or vice versa.

[Marky Dread]

I reckon Common People by Pulp is the true classic of Britpop that Bitter Sweet Symphony thinks it is.

[Dr. Medulla]

I reckon Common People by Pulp is the true classic of Britpop that Bitter Sweet Symphony thinks it is.

There's a band that I've tried and tried to get into, but it never happens. A few songs that are okayish, but it doesn't happen.

The only Britpop I unambiguously love (whom you mentioned earlier) are Supergrass.

[Marky Dread]

I reckon Common People by Pulp is the true classic of Britpop that Bitter Sweet Symphony thinks it is.

There's a band that I've tried and tried to get into, but it never happens. A few songs that are okayish, but it doesn't happen.

The only Britpop I unambiguously love (whom you mentioned earlier) are Supergrass.

Supergrass are my faves also of Britpop.

[revbob]

Well I'm not saying a good song cant have a place and time. Your example for instance. I was 10 when God Save the Queen came out. I was probably only starting to form my own feelings/opinions on music at that time. Clearly it was a song of it's time but it still resonates and stirs emotions 40 years later. I find the Dead Kennedys and Jello did/do timely songs but the message can still resonate today and perhaps that's a bad thing as we as a society haven't progressed as much as we should have. Fight the Power by Public Enemy was pretty big when it came out but it still holds meaning for a kid hearing it for the first time. Where am I going with this well maybe I misinterpreted what 101 was saying but if a song only holds up because of its place in time when it was released then I defer to what Wolter said. Which leads to an ongoing discussion I've been having with my son. He argues with his classmates about music all the time, many of them are clearly influenced by their parents why else would a teenager in 2019 think Uptown Girl by Bill Joel is a "classic". Its really not a good song and for a 15 to it has no meaning but a parent of these kids attaches a place and time to that song and seems it a classic.

But why can't a primary reason a person likes a song be the emotional response it generates, taking you to a time and place and state of mind?

Absolutely it can. I'm not arguing against that. In the end this is all personal taste and mine are probably sometimes more harline and dogmatic than others. Just that if that is your sole justification/reason as to why a song is good, it isnt likely to resonate in the same way with others nor have long term staying power outside of those who hold some nostalgic regard for it. Let's take a song like Candle in the Wind. If I'm not mistaken it was a song about (as Mojo Nixon sang ) the Drunk Divorced Floozy aka lady/princess Diana death. Is Candle in the Wind therefore a great song/one of the best of the past 25 years? No doubt it sold a lot and holds meaning for people who were traumatized by her death. But even people predisposed to like schlock like that aren't likely to hold it in such high regard so like Wolter said its nostalgia just like a song you mat have been listening to the first time you had a good kiss or fuck as a teenager.
...

edit: I wonder, perhaps, if we're disagreeing on what the hypothetical question being posed is. I'm arguing from the position of someone saying, "Why do you think that song is good?" My position wouldn't work if the question were instead, "Why do you think I should like that song?" As personal justification, pretty much anything goes; if it's about persuasion, appealing to an experience the person never had is likely a no-go.

Yeah I think so. In the end whatever reason a person like a song for is valid. But making sweeping generalizations that a song is one of the greatest of the past 25 years is no more valid than me saying that same song sucks, especially if your argument for greatness is that you had to be there.

And fuck yeah with the Billy Joel shit. My son and I have diverging opinions on music (and I wouldn't want it any other way). We agree on some stuff but not on others. I was pretty proud though when we were watching an episode of Portlandia recently and he recognized Henry Rollins. We however had a Bob Dylan discussion. He argued that people saying something is "classic" is BS as it usually just means it is old. His music teacher played Blowin' in the Wind and he was unimpressed. I played some other stuff like the "Death of Emmet Till and Masters of War (which the music teach didn't have the balls to play for a bunch of 14yo kids) and while he wasnt apprecative of the music itself, nor Dylan's vocals, he could recognize the value of the lyrics and why he is considered one of the great as t songwriters of the 20th century .

Also at this point I'm 6 beers in so if I ramble and meander that might be why.

Coma Girl just came on. I dont associate it with a place and time but I think it is a really good song.

[Dr. Medulla]

Yeah I think so. In the end whatever reason a person like a song for is valid. But making sweeping generalizations that a song is one of the greatest of the past 25 years is no more valid than me saying that same song sucks, especially if your argument for greatness is that you had to be there.

There's something liberating or empowering in that and also kind of sad. To the former, it's that our taste is our own and we shouldn't feel bad for being distinct. But to the latter, it can also be isolating, that there's little real glue for a common appreciation. It happens, it doesn't happen, with no predictability. Whether we want our individuality or to share something, well, that's a political question.

And fuck yeah with the Billy Joel shit. My son and I have diverging opinions on music (and I wouldn't want it any other way). We agree on some stuff but not on others. I was pretty proud though when we were watching an episode of Portlandia recently and he recognized Henry Rollins. We however had a Bob Dylan discussion. He argued that people saying something is "classic" is BS as it usually just means it is old. His music teacher played Blowin' in the Wind and he was unimpressed. I played some other stuff like the "Death of Emmet Till and Masters of War (which the music teach didn't have the balls to play for a bunch of 14yo kids) and while he wasnt apprecative of the music itself, nor Dylan's vocals, he could recognize the value of the lyrics and why he is considered one of the great as t songwriters of the 20th century .

He's fundamentally right that when people say "it's a classic," it's shorthand for "You need to appreciate this for reasons that don't need to be explained." Which is lazy justification. Ideologically, I don't believe in classics (in practice I do, because I'm being lazy). A cultural text needs to prove its worth here and now every time. And if it doesn't succeed with a person, so be it. But age and prior significance is not enough. If Dylan or Dead Kennedys or anyone can't motivate by actual experience, their worth is nil. That doesn't mean the listener shouldn't meet the song halfway by appreciating what previous audiences found appealing as a way of finding other entry points to a song, but I'm pretty firm that a song or artist must constantly justify their worth in the experience. If it has to become a dusty relic that we admire for its age and that alone, fuck it.

Also at this point I'm 6 beers in so if I ramble and meander that might be why.

Just concluded my third glass of wine for the evening, so I'm with ya.

Coma Girl just came on. I dont associate it with a place and time but I think it is a really good song.

But your tastes are shaped by time and place. That's what frames you thinking it's really good, not something intrinsic to the song. It's the experience that counts, not the song or book or movie.

[Heston]

I reckon Common People by Pulp is the true classic of Britpop that Bitter Sweet Symphony thinks it is.

Superb song but I don't think BSS thinks it's anything. It's just a song they put out there. There was loads of great songs during that era, probably the last hurrah for decent chart music.

[Heston]

I'd also argue that a really good song needs no place and time.

That's suggestive of some kind of objective measure, which I don't subscribe to. It's all subjective and all rooted in historical context to me. It doesn't mean you have to have been there at the time to "get" a song, but there's nothing intrinsic to the song. We bring all kinds of things to whether he judge a song good or bad, and historical context (of the song, when we heard it, where we're at now) all kicks in to some degree.

Yeah I've got your back with this Doc. Songs I love are often formed by their place in history. God Save the Queen as a prime example or Two Tribes for another.

Well I'm not saying a good song cant have a place and time. Your example for instance. I was 10 when God Save the Queen came out. I was probably only starting to form my own feelings/opinions on music at that time. Clearly it was a song of it's time but it still resonates and stirs emotions 40 years later. I find the Dead Kennedys and Jello did/do timely songs but the message can still resonate today and perhaps that's a bad thing as we as a society haven't progressed as much as we should have. Fight the Power by Public Enemy was pretty big when it came out but it still holds meaning for a kid hearing it for the first time. Where am I going with this well maybe I misinterpreted what 101 was saying but if a song only holds up because of its place in time when it was released then I defer to what Wolter said. Which leads to an ongoing discussion I've been having with my son. He argues with his classmates about music all the time, many of them are clearly influenced by their parents why else would a teenager in 2019 think Uptown Girl by Bill Joel is a "classic". Its really not a good song and for a 15 to it has no meaning but a parent of these kids attaches a place and time to that song and seems it a classic.

I can understand a young person in 2019 liking Uptown Girl in the same way I liked Walk Like a Man by the Four Seasons in 1983. They're just songs, there is no right and wrong.