Strummer thinks this is a good thing - as do I. Everything from the words to the delivery is approving of people that he's personally witnessed take control of their own destiny in the face of horrible systematic oppression. But what about black people who do mind throwing a brick, for whatever reason? They don't enter into this at all. It's far too general. I've got my problems with him nowadays, but Rotten wouldn't have written a line quite so sweeping.Inder wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 9:00amThat's a pretty ungenerous interpretation, imo.Silent Majority wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 8:46amWhite Man In Hammersmith Palais wasn't much later.matedog wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 8:11amParticularly for 77. Were there any songs of that time that had more nuance?Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 7:49amIt's a two-minute punk song, tho. It's a fish bat to the forehead to get your attention. I mean, you're not wrong, but your criticism is with the punk form than the song itself.Silent Majority wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 6:35amTo be honest, and I know I'm in the minority on this, I think that the lyric to White Riot, while obviously well meaning, is too simplistic and generalised to whole heartedly defend.
Really, my objection comes down almost entirely to the clanger of the line "black man gotta lot of problems/but he don't mind throwing a brick." I know the story behind the song, I know Joe's intentions, but you can craft a couplet in a two minute punk song that doesn't make it sound as though you see black people as a homogeneous brick throwing mass.
ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
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Silent Majority
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
Gotta disagree with you here — he's writing about the people he witnessed taking matters into their own hands/recording a response to specific event. The song isn't really "let us carefully consider the plight of the black man", which is a far more patronizing and (as the kids say) problematic attitude.Silent Majority wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 9:07amBut what about black people who do mind throwing a brick, for whatever reason? They don't enter into this at all. It's far too general. I've got my problems with him nowadays, but Rotten wouldn't have written a line quite so sweeping.
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
Yes what about those other no throwing black people who have no wish to riot. Are they the comfortable ones who have less to complain about. Are they the ones who have accepted their lot in society? Had Joe not mentioned the black people who had the guts to stand up be counted and had proven to be a solid inspiration to him then and only then would the song have had a racist overtone. In short brilliant lyrics brilliant song.Silent Majority wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 9:07amStrummer thinks this is a good thing - as do I. Everything from the words to the delivery is approving of people that he's personally witnessed take control of their own destiny in the face of horrible systematic oppression. But what about black people who do mind throwing a brick, for whatever reason? They don't enter into this at all. It's far too general. I've got my problems with him nowadays, but Rotten wouldn't have written a line quite so sweeping.Inder wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 9:00amThat's a pretty ungenerous interpretation, imo.Silent Majority wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 8:46amWhite Man In Hammersmith Palais wasn't much later.matedog wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 8:11amParticularly for 77. Were there any songs of that time that had more nuance?Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 7:49am
It's a two-minute punk song, tho. It's a fish bat to the forehead to get your attention. I mean, you're not wrong, but your criticism is with the punk form than the song itself.
Really, my objection comes down almost entirely to the clanger of the line "black man gotta lot of problems/but he don't mind throwing a brick." I know the story behind the song, I know Joe's intentions, but you can craft a couplet in a two minute punk song that doesn't make it sound as though you see black people as a homogeneous brick throwing mass.
White Riot isn't any more or less racist than (White Man) in Hammersmith Palais with all it's comfortable black people accepting the chicken-in-a-basket soul revue. ''if they've got anything to say''.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
Lydon's approach was always either very personal or very abstract, big concept. Strummer, especially in the early days, was more engaged in reportage, that immediate political and agitator stance. This is a really crude breakdown and there are exceptions, but Joe wrote like a folkie, about how things affect us; Lydon is libertarian and cares about how things affect him.Silent Majority wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 9:07amStrummer thinks this is a good thing - as do I. Everything from the words to the delivery is approving of people that he's personally witnessed take control of their own destiny in the face of horrible systematic oppression. But what about black people who do mind throwing a brick, for whatever reason? They don't enter into this at all. It's far too general. I've got my problems with him nowadays, but Rotten wouldn't have written a line quite so sweeping.Inder wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 9:00amThat's a pretty ungenerous interpretation, imo.Silent Majority wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 8:46amWhite Man In Hammersmith Palais wasn't much later.matedog wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 8:11amParticularly for 77. Were there any songs of that time that had more nuance?Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 7:49am
It's a two-minute punk song, tho. It's a fish bat to the forehead to get your attention. I mean, you're not wrong, but your criticism is with the punk form than the song itself.
Really, my objection comes down almost entirely to the clanger of the line "black man gotta lot of problems/but he don't mind throwing a brick." I know the story behind the song, I know Joe's intentions, but you can craft a couplet in a two minute punk song that doesn't make it sound as though you see black people as a homogeneous brick throwing mass.
fake edit due to other responses: Sorry if this seems a pile-on. It ain't intended as such.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
I think you've nailed it mate. Yes sure there are obvious exceptions from Lydon the latter ''One Drop'' being a prime example of were all in this shit together. Joe and The Clash were more on the spot news at five type lyrics.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 9:21amLydon's approach was always either very personal or very abstract, big concept. Strummer, especially in the early days, was more engaged in reportage, that immediate political and agitator stance. This is a really crude breakdown and there are exceptions, but Joe wrote like a folkie, about how things affect us; Lydon is libertarian and cares about how things affect him.Silent Majority wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 9:07amStrummer thinks this is a good thing - as do I. Everything from the words to the delivery is approving of people that he's personally witnessed take control of their own destiny in the face of horrible systematic oppression. But what about black people who do mind throwing a brick, for whatever reason? They don't enter into this at all. It's far too general. I've got my problems with him nowadays, but Rotten wouldn't have written a line quite so sweeping.Inder wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 9:00amThat's a pretty ungenerous interpretation, imo.Silent Majority wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 8:46amWhite Man In Hammersmith Palais wasn't much later.
Really, my objection comes down almost entirely to the clanger of the line "black man gotta lot of problems/but he don't mind throwing a brick." I know the story behind the song, I know Joe's intentions, but you can craft a couplet in a two minute punk song that doesn't make it sound as though you see black people as a homogeneous brick throwing mass.
fake edit due to other responses: Sorry if this seems a pile-on. It ain't intended as such.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
There's probably a decent paper in the movement of nouns/pronouns in White Riot:
black man > white people > everybody > nobody > I
black man > white people > everybody > nobody > I
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
Nice. But as I pointed out earlier in the thread the actual lyric is ''black people'' not ''black man''.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
I'm hearing "man" quite clearly...Marky Dread wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 9:32amNice. But as I pointed out earlier in the thread the actual lyric is ''black people'' not ''black man''.
Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
I always heard black man too.
Got a Rake? Sure!
IMCT: Inane Middle-Class Twats - Dr. M
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IMCT: Inane Middle-Class Twats - Dr. M
" *sigh* it's right when they throw the penis pump out the window." -Hoy
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
Same.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson
"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"
"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"
Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
The GREAT Clash SURVIVOR Poll of 2019 is tearing us apart.
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
No, it's cool. I love chatting about the band and their work. I'm a big enough boy to cheerfully hold a minority position and enjoy well reasoned rebuttals.
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Silent Majority
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
To make sure I'm not misunderstood, my position is
Strummer isn't at all racist
White Riot isn't racist
The song requires a level of knowledge about the catalysing incident unreasonable to ask from a casual listener
By the nature of the guttersnipe persona '76 Clash were writing from, you end up getting an oversimplified view of a very complicated issue.
Strummer isn't at all racist
White Riot isn't racist
The song requires a level of knowledge about the catalysing incident unreasonable to ask from a casual listener
By the nature of the guttersnipe persona '76 Clash were writing from, you end up getting an oversimplified view of a very complicated issue.
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One
I actually agree with you, but don’t tell anyone.Silent Majority wrote: ↑09 Apr 2019, 9:51amTo make sure I'm not misunderstood, my position is
Strummer isn't at all racist
White Riot isn't racist
The song requires a level of knowledge about the catalysing incident unreasonable to ask from a casual listener
By the nature of the guttersnipe persona '76 Clash were writing from, you end up getting an oversimplified view of a very complicated issue.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson
"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"
"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"