ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Poll ended at 09 Apr 2019, 1:09pm

Janie Jones
3
10%
Remote Control
9
31%
I'm So Bored With The U.S.A.
1
3%
White Riot
9
31%
London's Burning
7
24%
 
Total votes: 29

Silent Majority
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by Silent Majority »

Inder wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:00am
Silent Majority wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 8:46am
matedog wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 8:11am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 7:49am
Silent Majority wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 6:35am
To be honest, and I know I'm in the minority on this, I think that the lyric to White Riot, while obviously well meaning, is too simplistic and generalised to whole heartedly defend.
It's a two-minute punk song, tho. It's a fish bat to the forehead to get your attention. I mean, you're not wrong, but your criticism is with the punk form than the song itself.
Particularly for 77. Were there any songs of that time that had more nuance?
White Man In Hammersmith Palais wasn't much later.

Really, my objection comes down almost entirely to the clanger of the line "black man gotta lot of problems/but he don't mind throwing a brick." I know the story behind the song, I know Joe's intentions, but you can craft a couplet in a two minute punk song that doesn't make it sound as though you see black people as a homogeneous brick throwing mass.
That's a pretty ungenerous interpretation, imo.
Strummer thinks this is a good thing - as do I. Everything from the words to the delivery is approving of people that he's personally witnessed take control of their own destiny in the face of horrible systematic oppression. But what about black people who do mind throwing a brick, for whatever reason? They don't enter into this at all. It's far too general. I've got my problems with him nowadays, but Rotten wouldn't have written a line quite so sweeping.
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Inder
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by Inder »

Silent Majority wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:07am
But what about black people who do mind throwing a brick, for whatever reason? They don't enter into this at all. It's far too general. I've got my problems with him nowadays, but Rotten wouldn't have written a line quite so sweeping.
Gotta disagree with you here — he's writing about the people he witnessed taking matters into their own hands/recording a response to specific event. The song isn't really "let us carefully consider the plight of the black man", which is a far more patronizing and (as the kids say) problematic attitude.

Marky Dread
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by Marky Dread »

Silent Majority wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:07am
Inder wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:00am
Silent Majority wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 8:46am
matedog wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 8:11am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 7:49am


It's a two-minute punk song, tho. It's a fish bat to the forehead to get your attention. I mean, you're not wrong, but your criticism is with the punk form than the song itself.
Particularly for 77. Were there any songs of that time that had more nuance?
White Man In Hammersmith Palais wasn't much later.

Really, my objection comes down almost entirely to the clanger of the line "black man gotta lot of problems/but he don't mind throwing a brick." I know the story behind the song, I know Joe's intentions, but you can craft a couplet in a two minute punk song that doesn't make it sound as though you see black people as a homogeneous brick throwing mass.
That's a pretty ungenerous interpretation, imo.
Strummer thinks this is a good thing - as do I. Everything from the words to the delivery is approving of people that he's personally witnessed take control of their own destiny in the face of horrible systematic oppression. But what about black people who do mind throwing a brick, for whatever reason? They don't enter into this at all. It's far too general. I've got my problems with him nowadays, but Rotten wouldn't have written a line quite so sweeping.
Yes what about those other no throwing black people who have no wish to riot. Are they the comfortable ones who have less to complain about. Are they the ones who have accepted their lot in society? Had Joe not mentioned the black people who had the guts to stand up be counted and had proven to be a solid inspiration to him then and only then would the song have had a racist overtone. In short brilliant lyrics brilliant song.

White Riot isn't any more or less racist than (White Man) in Hammersmith Palais with all it's comfortable black people accepting the chicken-in-a-basket soul revue. ''if they've got anything to say''.
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My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Dr. Medulla
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Silent Majority wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:07am
Inder wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:00am
Silent Majority wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 8:46am
matedog wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 8:11am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 7:49am


It's a two-minute punk song, tho. It's a fish bat to the forehead to get your attention. I mean, you're not wrong, but your criticism is with the punk form than the song itself.
Particularly for 77. Were there any songs of that time that had more nuance?
White Man In Hammersmith Palais wasn't much later.

Really, my objection comes down almost entirely to the clanger of the line "black man gotta lot of problems/but he don't mind throwing a brick." I know the story behind the song, I know Joe's intentions, but you can craft a couplet in a two minute punk song that doesn't make it sound as though you see black people as a homogeneous brick throwing mass.
That's a pretty ungenerous interpretation, imo.
Strummer thinks this is a good thing - as do I. Everything from the words to the delivery is approving of people that he's personally witnessed take control of their own destiny in the face of horrible systematic oppression. But what about black people who do mind throwing a brick, for whatever reason? They don't enter into this at all. It's far too general. I've got my problems with him nowadays, but Rotten wouldn't have written a line quite so sweeping.
Lydon's approach was always either very personal or very abstract, big concept. Strummer, especially in the early days, was more engaged in reportage, that immediate political and agitator stance. This is a really crude breakdown and there are exceptions, but Joe wrote like a folkie, about how things affect us; Lydon is libertarian and cares about how things affect him.

fake edit due to other responses: Sorry if this seems a pile-on. It ain't intended as such.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Marky Dread
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:21am
Silent Majority wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:07am
Inder wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:00am
Silent Majority wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 8:46am
matedog wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 8:11am

Particularly for 77. Were there any songs of that time that had more nuance?
White Man In Hammersmith Palais wasn't much later.

Really, my objection comes down almost entirely to the clanger of the line "black man gotta lot of problems/but he don't mind throwing a brick." I know the story behind the song, I know Joe's intentions, but you can craft a couplet in a two minute punk song that doesn't make it sound as though you see black people as a homogeneous brick throwing mass.
That's a pretty ungenerous interpretation, imo.
Strummer thinks this is a good thing - as do I. Everything from the words to the delivery is approving of people that he's personally witnessed take control of their own destiny in the face of horrible systematic oppression. But what about black people who do mind throwing a brick, for whatever reason? They don't enter into this at all. It's far too general. I've got my problems with him nowadays, but Rotten wouldn't have written a line quite so sweeping.
Lydon's approach was always either very personal or very abstract, big concept. Strummer, especially in the early days, was more engaged in reportage, that immediate political and agitator stance. This is a really crude breakdown and there are exceptions, but Joe wrote like a folkie, about how things affect us; Lydon is libertarian and cares about how things affect him.

fake edit due to other responses: Sorry if this seems a pile-on. It ain't intended as such.
I think you've nailed it mate. Yes sure there are obvious exceptions from Lydon the latter ''One Drop'' being a prime example of were all in this shit together. Joe and The Clash were more on the spot news at five type lyrics.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Inder
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by Inder »

There's probably a decent paper in the movement of nouns/pronouns in White Riot:

black man > white people > everybody > nobody > I

Marky Dread
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by Marky Dread »

Inder wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:29am
There's probably a decent paper in the movement of nouns/pronouns in White Riot:

black man > white people > everybody > nobody > I
Nice. But as I pointed out earlier in the thread the actual lyric is ''black people'' not ''black man''.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Inder
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by Inder »

Marky Dread wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:32am
Inder wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:29am
There's probably a decent paper in the movement of nouns/pronouns in White Riot:

black man > white people > everybody > nobody > I
Nice. But as I pointed out earlier in the thread the actual lyric is ''black people'' not ''black man''.
I'm hearing "man" quite clearly...




JennyB
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by JennyB »

I always heard black man too.
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by Wolter »

Same.
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Inder
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by Inder »

The GREAT Clash SURVIVOR Poll of 2019 is tearing us apart.

Silent Majority
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by Silent Majority »

Inder wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:42am
The GREAT Clash SURVIVOR Poll of 2019 is tearing us apart.
No, it's cool. I love chatting about the band and their work. I'm a big enough boy to cheerfully hold a minority position and enjoy well reasoned rebuttals.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Inder wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:42am
The GREAT Clash SURVIVOR Poll of 2019 is tearing us apart.
Image
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Silent Majority
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by Silent Majority »

To make sure I'm not misunderstood, my position is

Strummer isn't at all racist
White Riot isn't racist
The song requires a level of knowledge about the catalysing incident unreasonable to ask from a casual listener
By the nature of the guttersnipe persona '76 Clash were writing from, you end up getting an oversimplified view of a very complicated issue.
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Re: ROUND 4 - The Clash - Side One

Post by Wolter »

Silent Majority wrote:
09 Apr 2019, 9:51am
To make sure I'm not misunderstood, my position is

Strummer isn't at all racist
White Riot isn't racist
The song requires a level of knowledge about the catalysing incident unreasonable to ask from a casual listener
By the nature of the guttersnipe persona '76 Clash were writing from, you end up getting an oversimplified view of a very complicated issue.
I actually agree with you, but don’t tell anyone.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson

"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"

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