Cut the Crap - Finalist

[Flex]

Recorded by the actual band would have produced, in my guess, something lacklustre instead of something ludicrous. Arguably, Bernie made them go out with a bang rather than a whimper. #turdpolishing

Hard disagree, well, maybe. Those live shows were great and I even like what I hear in the '83 demos. Again, maybe it wouldn't have been The Last Great Clash Record, but I'd have settled for a solid B+ effort that mixed in punk, roots and hard rock (which is more or less what they were bringing to the live show). The songwriting bones of at least 2/3 of those those CTC songs are at least as good as most of what ended up on the preceding two records. I think they had it in 'em.

All that said, I agree that the most likely conclusion of "what if Cut The Crap but with full band" and no other variables changed (i.e. Bernie is still in the mix and so forth) is something rather bleh rather than something quite good, simply because Bernie was a fuckin' black hole by that point and Joe was in no place to put together a solid record.

But there's a tantalizing "what if" game where Joe and Paul get it together enough to sack Bernie ahead of the recording, Joe takes a little time to get his head on straight, the band ties in with a real producer and they go out with a perfectly respectable record with a few solid swan song classics.

[Marky Dread]

Recorded by the actual band would have produced, in my guess, something lacklustre instead of something ludicrous. Arguably, Bernie made them go out with a bang rather than a whimper. #turdpolishing

I get your point. But if this turgid mess still has fans after this long that at least tells me something was salvagable and it might not even have been the end of the band.

[Marky Dread]

I'm listening to Cut the Crap and both Dirty Punk and We Are The Clash have great crunchy guitars and good vocals with some nice hooks and relatively inoffenseive drum machine programming on 'em. Those two really should have made it further in the voting than they did. I think Dirty Punk may be my favorite on side one, nice as Movers and Shakers is.

Drum programming on a Clash record without the use of the real drummer. No excuses period for that.

The problem is that in 1985 most bands were using synthetic drums, even Madness and the Stranglers got in on the act.

You are only partially correct The Stranglers had been using that stuff since at least 1981. The Clash were not a band attempting chart success in my opinion. Any of that was always a bonus so they were not competing against those bands mentioned or any others of the day.

[Flex]

Side note, I think this came up recently but still blows me away that Jet Black is 80. He and Jerry Lee Lewis should do a tour together (I know Jet Black has retired from the stage).

[Dr. Medulla]

Fundamentally, I'm just not as high on the songs themselves as both of you (and others, of course). But I'm skeptical that Joe's mental state could have generated something good even with a proper band and supportive producer. I mean, look at Earthquake Weather. This wasn't Joy Division, whose art benefited from a singer at war with himself. I'm fully in line with the conventional assessment that when Topper and especially Mick were tossed overboard, there was no way the ending could be redeemed in any way.

[Flex]

I'm fully in line with the conventional assessment

How very Bougie of you.

I can understand either narrative of: "missed opportunity" or "there was no way for this to end but tears and embarrassment." It's the weirdos who think CTC was an actual artistic success as-is I think we all need to unite together to make side-eye at.

[Marky Dread]

Fundamentally, I'm just not as high on the songs themselves as both of you (and others, of course). But I'm skeptical that Joe's mental state could have generated something good even with a proper band and supportive producer. I mean, look at Earthquake Weather. This wasn't Joy Division, whose art benefited from a singer at war with himself. I'm fully in line with the conventional assessment that when Topper and especially Mick were tossed overboard, there was no way the ending could be redeemed in any way.

Many bands lost musicians along the way and continued I see no reason The Clash could not have done the same. Mick was the genius songsmith and Topper a powerhouse of a drummer and they are shoes too big to fill. But there are other musicains from that era who were very good indeed and it was always possible to continue. Maybe it was that those chosen were not quite the right choices.

[Dr. Medulla]

I'm fully in line with the conventional assessment

How very Bougie of you.

It's the "I've got a damned mortgage to pay—you think money grows on trees?" perspective of the Clash.

Many bands lost musicians along the way and continued I see no reason The Clash could not have done the same. Mick was the genius songsmith and Topper a powerhouse of a drummer and they are shoes too big to fill. But there are other musicains from that era who were very good indeed and it was always possible to continue. Maybe it was that those chosen were not quite the right choices.

It's not so much about whether the replacements were competent enough—they were—but that getting rid of Mick was indicative of Joe's distorted view of thing. Sacking Mick was the solution? And, as we know, it only worsened Joe's confidence issues and sense of what the Clash represented. So, to me, it's not about the loss of two excellent musicians but their personalities and qualities they brought to the band as a whole, how they bolstered Joe's sense of self because they made the band whole (acknowledging, yes, that Topper's addiction kind of forced the issue with him and Mick was also being a pain in the ass).

[Marky Dread]

I'm fully in line with the conventional assessment

How very Bougie of you.

It's the "I've got a damned mortgage to pay—you think money grows on trees?" perspective of the Clash.

Many bands lost musicians along the way and continued I see no reason The Clash could not have done the same. Mick was the genius songsmith and Topper a powerhouse of a drummer and they are shoes too big to fill. But there are other musicains from that era who were very good indeed and it was always possible to continue. Maybe it was that those chosen were not quite the right choices.

It's not so much about whether the replacements were competent enough—they were—but that getting rid of Mick was indicative of Joe's distorted view of thing. Sacking Mick was the solution? And, as we know, it only worsened Joe's confidence issues and sense of what the Clash represented. So, to me, it's not about the loss of two excellent musicians but their personalities and qualities they brought to the band as a whole, how they bolstered Joe's sense of self because they made the band whole (acknowledging, yes, that Topper's addiction kind of forced the issue with him and Mick was also being a pain in the ass).

Bernie's influence of Joe at this time was indeed bizarre. It's as if Joe felt he owed Bernie a debt firstly for getting him in the band and then for Bernie to agree to come back to manage the band after Underhill had finished. I think Joe gave Bernie far too much credit.

[Dr. Medulla]

Bernie's influence of Joe at this time was indeed bizarre. It's as if Joe felt he owed Bernie a debt firstly for getting him in the band and then for Bernie to agree to come back to manage the band after Underhill had finished. I think Joe gave Bernie far too much credit.

A common interpretation of totalitarianism that arose in the 1950s, trying to explain and tie together both Nazism and Bolshevism, argued that weak-willed, insecure people incapable of handling the responsibility personal freedom sought out strong leaders who would give them confidence by proxy and by putting them together with other likeminded people (the mass). There's something about the Joe/Bernie relationship that second go 'round that echoes that theory. Bernie offered certainty, he had answers, and a depressed Joe who thought the point of the Clash had gone off the rails was ripe for manipulation. Just a terrible combination at that time and place.

[gkbill]

Bernie's influence of Joe at this time was indeed bizarre. It's as if Joe felt he owed Bernie a debt firstly for getting him in the band and then for Bernie to agree to come back to manage the band after Underhill had finished. I think Joe gave Bernie far too much credit.

A common interpretation of totalitarianism that arose in the 1950s, trying to explain and tie together both Nazism and Bolshevism, argued that weak-willed, insecure people incapable of handling the responsibility personal freedom sought out strong leaders who would give them confidence by proxy and by putting them together with other likeminded people (the mass). There's something about the Joe/Bernie relationship that second go 'round that echoes that theory. Bernie offered certainty, he had answers, and a depressed Joe who thought the point of the Clash had gone off the rails was ripe for manipulation. Just a terrible combination at that time and place.

Hello,

I've thought this as well. There's a line in a Bowie song Earthling : "I don't want knowledge; I want certainty" - kind of sums it up.

[Marky Dread]

I'm not sure I buy into all this. Joe wasn't some snot nosed kid. By the time of CtC Joe was very worldly indeed so I don't think he needed Bernie to hold his hand. I think he just liked the idea that Bernie would stir stuff up. But this backfired on him in the worst way possible.

[Dr. Medulla]

I'm not sure I buy into all this. Joe wasn't some snot nosed kid. By the time of CtC Joe was very worldly indeed so I don't think he needed Bernie to hold his hand. I think he just liked the idea that Bernie would stir stuff up. But this backfired on him in the worst way possible.

But, as Ralph's book makes very clear, Joe was suffering from depression in this period. He was someone unsure what the hell the point of the Clash was and Bernie was right there to confidently dictate.

[Marky Dread]

I'm not sure I buy into all this. Joe wasn't some snot nosed kid. By the time of CtC Joe was very worldly indeed so I don't think he needed Bernie to hold his hand. I think he just liked the idea that Bernie would stir stuff up. But this backfired on him in the worst way possible.

But, as Ralph's book makes very clear, Joe was suffering from depression in this period. He was someone unsure what the hell the point of the Clash was and Bernie was right there to confidently dictate.

I don't doubt the depression thing. Joe had a lot on his plate but Joe was no shirker when it came to responsibility and I reckon he believed in these songs right up until the recording of the album took place.

[Flex]

Bernie was basically a psychologically abusive partner.