ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Poll ended at 25 Apr 2019, 2:23pm

Something About England
4
15%
Somebody Got Murdered
0
No votes
One More Time
2
8%
Up In Heaven (Not Only Here)
8
31%
Lets Go Crazy
9
35%
Washington Bullets
2
8%
Charlie Don't Surf
1
4%
 
Total votes: 26

Silent Majority
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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by Silent Majority »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
24 Apr 2019, 9:48pm
Flex wrote:
24 Apr 2019, 9:37pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
24 Apr 2019, 6:58pm
You haven't been paying attention to me all these years if you think I've ever given the impression that I'm tolerant of maudlin sentiment or nationalism (especially Canadian nationalism).
*Furiously scribbles notes in doctor medulla journal*

Hmmm... does NOT like Canadian nationalism, I see.

*Furrows brow*

This will require DRAMATIC rewrites of my doctor medulla fursona fanfiction.
I don't think anyone's ever scribbled anything furiously about me. I feel blessed.
A student has furiously scribbled "Want Poutine." on their eyelids before your class.
Authority is supposedly grounded in wisdom, but I could see from a very early age that authority was only a system of control and it didn't have any inherent wisdom. I quickly realised that you either became a power or you were crushed


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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by Silent Majority »

How could it be a nationalist song when all the memories dredged up about England are a message forwarded from Hell? I don't think a great lyric needs to offer a solution as it points out a problem. I'm So Bored With the USA doesn't have a closing line that says "so let's create more culture / of our own."
Authority is supposedly grounded in wisdom, but I could see from a very early age that authority was only a system of control and it didn't have any inherent wisdom. I quickly realised that you either became a power or you were crushed


www.pexlives.libsyn.com/

matedog
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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by matedog »

I think the “you really think it’s all new” is such a key line to the song. It really hammers home that these issues are issues that have been around for quite some time. Knowing how entrenched they are really shows how difficult change will be.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Silent Majority wrote:
24 Apr 2019, 11:55pm
How could it be a nationalist song when all the memories dredged up about England are a message forwarded from Hell? I don't think a great lyric needs to offer a solution as it points out a problem. I'm So Bored With the USA doesn't have a closing line that says "so let's create more culture / of our own."
It's somewhat ambiguous about nationalism. It could be that the real national spirit lies with the masses but has been co-opted by those in power, or that national spirit itself is nonsense.

I don't think the comparison with ISBwtUSA works. Nobody, especially in the punk scene in 1977, would understand boredom as something to abide by so complacently. Contrast SAE with Clampdown to see what I'm talking about. There's an assertion about being fucked over by the bosses with no ambiguity that you should be angry and resist it, not a long history of being fucked over and … who knows, a long future of being fucked over?
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Heston
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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by Heston »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 6:33am
Silent Majority wrote:
24 Apr 2019, 11:55pm
How could it be a nationalist song when all the memories dredged up about England are a message forwarded from Hell? I don't think a great lyric needs to offer a solution as it points out a problem. I'm So Bored With the USA doesn't have a closing line that says "so let's create more culture / of our own."
It's somewhat ambiguous about nationalism. It could be that the real national spirit lies with the masses but has been co-opted by those in power, or that national spirit itself is nonsense.

I don't think the comparison with ISBwtUSA works. Nobody, especially in the punk scene in 1977, would understand boredom as something to abide by so complacently. Contrast SAE with Clampdown to see what I'm talking about. There's an assertion about being fucked over by the bosses with no ambiguity that you should be angry and resist it, not a long history of being fucked over and … who knows, a long future of being fucked over?
I think the opening two lines make it clear which side the song is on. The use of "they say" is pretty much sang with utter contempt.

Also note the title of the song refers to it being a song about England. What is the song about Joe? It's something about England. Not Joe saying there's something about England that's great.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

Heston
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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by Heston »

I'm hoping LGC can somehow turn this around. I was listening to it on Marky's remaster this morning, what a superb track.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Heston wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 7:57am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 6:33am
Silent Majority wrote:
24 Apr 2019, 11:55pm
How could it be a nationalist song when all the memories dredged up about England are a message forwarded from Hell? I don't think a great lyric needs to offer a solution as it points out a problem. I'm So Bored With the USA doesn't have a closing line that says "so let's create more culture / of our own."
It's somewhat ambiguous about nationalism. It could be that the real national spirit lies with the masses but has been co-opted by those in power, or that national spirit itself is nonsense.

I don't think the comparison with ISBwtUSA works. Nobody, especially in the punk scene in 1977, would understand boredom as something to abide by so complacently. Contrast SAE with Clampdown to see what I'm talking about. There's an assertion about being fucked over by the bosses with no ambiguity that you should be angry and resist it, not a long history of being fucked over and … who knows, a long future of being fucked over?
I think the opening two lines make it clear which side the song is on. The use of "they say" is pretty much sang with utter contempt.

Also note the title of the song refers to it being a song about England. What is the song about Joe? It's something about England. Not Joe saying there's something about England that's great.
I'm not following. Is it against nationalism altogether or that true nationalism lies with the people, not the elites? Saying there's something about England suggests there's something special about England or being English, which would indicate that nationalism can be okay if it's truly with the people. Yet, the cynicism and weariness of the lyrics over the entire century suggest nationalism is a boondoggle that fucks over the people, so get past it.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Heston
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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by Heston »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 8:37am
Heston wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 7:57am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 6:33am
Silent Majority wrote:
24 Apr 2019, 11:55pm
How could it be a nationalist song when all the memories dredged up about England are a message forwarded from Hell? I don't think a great lyric needs to offer a solution as it points out a problem. I'm So Bored With the USA doesn't have a closing line that says "so let's create more culture / of our own."
It's somewhat ambiguous about nationalism. It could be that the real national spirit lies with the masses but has been co-opted by those in power, or that national spirit itself is nonsense.

I don't think the comparison with ISBwtUSA works. Nobody, especially in the punk scene in 1977, would understand boredom as something to abide by so complacently. Contrast SAE with Clampdown to see what I'm talking about. There's an assertion about being fucked over by the bosses with no ambiguity that you should be angry and resist it, not a long history of being fucked over and … who knows, a long future of being fucked over?
I think the opening two lines make it clear which side the song is on. The use of "they say" is pretty much sang with utter contempt.

Also note the title of the song refers to it being a song about England. What is the song about Joe? It's something about England. Not Joe saying there's something about England that's great.
I'm not following. Is it against nationalism altogether or that true nationalism lies with the people, not the elites? Saying there's something about England suggests there's something special about England or being English, which would indicate that nationalism can be okay if it's truly with the people. Yet, the cynicism and weariness of the lyrics over the entire century suggest nationalism is a boondoggle that fucks over the people, so get past it.
I think the nationalist thing is a red herring really, aside from the little swipe against the National Front-types at the start. It's more a potted history of the elite fucking over the lower classes in the 20th century. The crucial line is "through strikes and famine and war and peace, England never closed this gap."
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

Dr. Medulla
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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Heston wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 8:46am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 8:37am
Heston wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 7:57am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 6:33am
Silent Majority wrote:
24 Apr 2019, 11:55pm
How could it be a nationalist song when all the memories dredged up about England are a message forwarded from Hell? I don't think a great lyric needs to offer a solution as it points out a problem. I'm So Bored With the USA doesn't have a closing line that says "so let's create more culture / of our own."
It's somewhat ambiguous about nationalism. It could be that the real national spirit lies with the masses but has been co-opted by those in power, or that national spirit itself is nonsense.

I don't think the comparison with ISBwtUSA works. Nobody, especially in the punk scene in 1977, would understand boredom as something to abide by so complacently. Contrast SAE with Clampdown to see what I'm talking about. There's an assertion about being fucked over by the bosses with no ambiguity that you should be angry and resist it, not a long history of being fucked over and … who knows, a long future of being fucked over?
I think the opening two lines make it clear which side the song is on. The use of "they say" is pretty much sang with utter contempt.

Also note the title of the song refers to it being a song about England. What is the song about Joe? It's something about England. Not Joe saying there's something about England that's great.
I'm not following. Is it against nationalism altogether or that true nationalism lies with the people, not the elites? Saying there's something about England suggests there's something special about England or being English, which would indicate that nationalism can be okay if it's truly with the people. Yet, the cynicism and weariness of the lyrics over the entire century suggest nationalism is a boondoggle that fucks over the people, so get past it.
I think the nationalist thing is a red herring really, aside from the little swipe against the National Front-types at the start. It's more a potted history of the elite fucking over the lower classes in the 20th century. The crucial line is "through strikes and famine and war and peace, England never closed this gap."
So real nationalism lies with the people?
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by WestwayKid »

Just a side note...but it's really fun seeing everyone actually discussing the Clash! ;)
"Geoff who takes kids camping is dead all the boys except Rusty are missing." - revbob
"Tom checks the ingredients on "Uncle Pusher's Old Timey Cocaine Filled Cider" - Silent Majority

Heston
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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by Heston »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 9:02am
Heston wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 8:46am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 8:37am
Heston wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 7:57am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 6:33am


It's somewhat ambiguous about nationalism. It could be that the real national spirit lies with the masses but has been co-opted by those in power, or that national spirit itself is nonsense.

I don't think the comparison with ISBwtUSA works. Nobody, especially in the punk scene in 1977, would understand boredom as something to abide by so complacently. Contrast SAE with Clampdown to see what I'm talking about. There's an assertion about being fucked over by the bosses with no ambiguity that you should be angry and resist it, not a long history of being fucked over and … who knows, a long future of being fucked over?
I think the opening two lines make it clear which side the song is on. The use of "they say" is pretty much sang with utter contempt.

Also note the title of the song refers to it being a song about England. What is the song about Joe? It's something about England. Not Joe saying there's something about England that's great.
I'm not following. Is it against nationalism altogether or that true nationalism lies with the people, not the elites? Saying there's something about England suggests there's something special about England or being English, which would indicate that nationalism can be okay if it's truly with the people. Yet, the cynicism and weariness of the lyrics over the entire century suggest nationalism is a boondoggle that fucks over the people, so get past it.
I think the nationalist thing is a red herring really, aside from the little swipe against the National Front-types at the start. It's more a potted history of the elite fucking over the lower classes in the 20th century. The crucial line is "through strikes and famine and war and peace, England never closed this gap."
So real nationalism lies with the people?
I don't think the song says that at all. The only reference to nationalism is "they say the immigrants steal the hubcaps of respected gentlemen, they say it would be wine and roses if England were for Englishman again" which is a swipe at National Front-type utterances of the time, and just there to set up the story really. Joe then more or less goes on to say you haven't even got an England worth saving, it's fucked. That's what I get out of it anyway, but I'm pretty convinced a band with the Clash's worldview and track record weren't praising nationalism in any form, the opposite if anything.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

Heston
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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by Heston »

WestwayKid wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 9:05am
Just a side note...but it's really fun seeing everyone actually discussing the Clash! ;)
I'm off work for two weeks and really should be getting important things done but I'm tied to this godamn survivor poll! :mrgreen:
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Heston wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 9:14am
I don't think the song says that at all. The only reference to nationalism is "they say the immigrants steal the hubcaps of respected gentlemen, they say it would be wine and roses if England were for Englishman again" which is a swipe at National Front-type utterances of the time, and just there to set up the story really. Joe then more or less goes on to say you haven't even got an England worth saving, it's fucked. That's what I get out of it anyway, but I'm pretty convinced a band with the Clash's worldview and track record weren't praising nationalism in any form, the opposite if anything.
Something About England. England is a nation, English is a sense of nation. The song isn't called Something About the People or the Workers or Working Class. It's specifically about the English working-class. But, as you say and I agree, the lyrics are a bitter recitation of how the working class has been fucked over in the 20th c, notably by nationalist/imperialist wars. So, I return again to the ambiguity of whether Joe is advocating an Englishness of the people or an abandonment of that kind of stuff because it can be used to manipulate and lead people to their death? Those are two distinct interpretations and It's not clear to me whether Joe is going folk or revolutionary—he had a track record of playing both sides.
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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by Heston »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 9:23am
Heston wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 9:14am
I don't think the song says that at all. The only reference to nationalism is "they say the immigrants steal the hubcaps of respected gentlemen, they say it would be wine and roses if England were for Englishman again" which is a swipe at National Front-type utterances of the time, and just there to set up the story really. Joe then more or less goes on to say you haven't even got an England worth saving, it's fucked. That's what I get out of it anyway, but I'm pretty convinced a band with the Clash's worldview and track record weren't praising nationalism in any form, the opposite if anything.
Something About England. England is a nation, English is a sense of nation. The song isn't called Something About the People or the Workers or Working Class. It's specifically about the English working-class. But, as you say and I agree, the lyrics are a bitter recitation of how the working class has been fucked over in the 20th c, notably by nationalist/imperialist wars. So, I return again to the ambiguity of whether Joe is advocating an Englishness of the people or an abandonment of that kind of stuff because it can be used to manipulate and lead people to their death? Those are two distinct interpretations and It's not clear to me whether Joe is going folk or revolutionary—he had a track record of playing both sides.
Almost certainly the latter in this case I think.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board

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Re: ROUND 18 - Sandinista! Semifinal

Post by WestwayKid »

Heston wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 9:14am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 9:02am
Heston wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 8:46am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 8:37am
Heston wrote:
25 Apr 2019, 7:57am


I think the opening two lines make it clear which side the song is on. The use of "they say" is pretty much sang with utter contempt.

Also note the title of the song refers to it being a song about England. What is the song about Joe? It's something about England. Not Joe saying there's something about England that's great.
I'm not following. Is it against nationalism altogether or that true nationalism lies with the people, not the elites? Saying there's something about England suggests there's something special about England or being English, which would indicate that nationalism can be okay if it's truly with the people. Yet, the cynicism and weariness of the lyrics over the entire century suggest nationalism is a boondoggle that fucks over the people, so get past it.
I think the nationalist thing is a red herring really, aside from the little swipe against the National Front-types at the start. It's more a potted history of the elite fucking over the lower classes in the 20th century. The crucial line is "through strikes and famine and war and peace, England never closed this gap."
So real nationalism lies with the people?
I don't think the song says that at all. The only reference to nationalism is "they say the immigrants steal the hubcaps of respected gentlemen, they say it would be wine and roses if England were for Englishman again" which is a swipe at National Front-type utterances of the time, and just there to set up the story really. Joe then more or less goes on to say you haven't even got an England worth saving, it's fucked. That's what I get out of it anyway, but I'm pretty convinced a band with the Clash's worldview and track record weren't praising nationalism in any form, the opposite if anything.
My take is that it's a somewhat resigned look at the fact that class/income inequality has always been a problem and it always will be. It takes on a lot of forms: lazy racism as seen in the first verse, the checked out upper classes and so on. I say resigned because it doesn't offer any answer - it just says it's a shitty situation and despite whatever optimism is being put out by those in power - nothing has really changed. It's a fascinating song that I never really took the time to dig into. There really is also a sense of cynicism that comes across in the lyrics - again - no answers are offered and really no optimism is given: the situation sucks and it has always sucked and it will probably always suck. It's a good lyric, though. I think that is what Joe was trying to get across. It's a commentary - not a call to arms.
"Geoff who takes kids camping is dead all the boys except Rusty are missing." - revbob
"Tom checks the ingredients on "Uncle Pusher's Old Timey Cocaine Filled Cider" - Silent Majority

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