Revolver - Side B - Round 5

[Dr. Medulla]

I want a TKN/ER face off in the final, that's all I'm saying.

Neither of those will be final two, and ER probably won't even get past IOS in Side A's last vote (tho I'll be voting to support ER, despite vastly preferring IOS).

[Heston]

I want a TKN/ER face off in the final, that's all I'm saying.

Neither of those will be final two, and ER probably won't even get past IOS in Side A's last vote (tho I'll be voting to support ER, despite vastly preferring IOS).

Sorry, I meant the next round rather than the final. The final will be contested by Strawberry Fields and Hey Jude. Yeah, it's not looking good for ER but I implore the board to give it a chance against TNK in the next round.

[Dr. Medulla]

I want a TKN/ER face off in the final, that's all I'm saying.

Neither of those will be final two, and ER probably won't even get past IOS in Side A's last vote (tho I'll be voting to support ER, despite vastly preferring IOS).

Sorry, I meant the next round rather than the final. The final will be contested by Strawberry Fields and Hey Jude. Yeah, it's not looking good for ER but I implore the board to give it a chance against TNK in the next round.

WWK hasn't been doing Side A vs Side B votes, so you won't get your showdown (unless you want so start a side poll).

I think you're right about SFF (my second favourite Beatles song, and not that far behind TNK) making the final, but I'd be surprised if "Hey Jude" makes it. It's often derided as overblown schlock, no? I love it myself—Paul gets close to schlock but stays on the heartfelt side, and the campfire singalong at the end if a wonderful effort at unity at a time when band and society was so divided. Maybe "Revolution" as the other finalist?

[Heston]

I want a TKN/ER face off in the final, that's all I'm saying.

Neither of those will be final two, and ER probably won't even get past IOS in Side A's last vote (tho I'll be voting to support ER, despite vastly preferring IOS).

Sorry, I meant the next round rather than the final. The final will be contested by Strawberry Fields and Hey Jude. Yeah, it's not looking good for ER but I implore the board to give it a chance against TNK in the next round.

WWK hasn't been doing Side A vs Side B votes, so you won't get your showdown (unless you want so start a side poll).

I think you're right about SFF (my second favourite Beatles song, and not that far behind TNK) making the final, but I'd be surprised if "Hey Jude" makes it. It's often derided as overblown schlock, no? I love it myself—Paul gets close to schlock but stays on the heartfelt side, and the campfire singalong at the end if a wonderful effort at unity at a time when band and society was so divided. Maybe "Revolution" as the other finalist?

I thought the Side A vs Side B votes came in the next round? I'm not sure how the game is gonna pan out. WWK?

Not convinced about Revolution as the other finalist. I'm thinking A Day In the Life.

[Dr. Medulla]

I thought the Side A vs Side B votes came in the next round? I'm not sure how the game is gonna pan out. WWK?

I don't know either, but otherwise I would assume he'd do album finals before moving on to the next record. So I assume in some manner he's throwing two sides into some kind of hopper.

Not convinced about Revolution as the other finalist. I'm thinking A Day In the Life.

That's a good possibility, too. (Even recognizing the epic power of ADITL, I think I dig "Good Morning" more off of Side 2.)

[Heston]

I thought the Side A vs Side B votes came in the next round? I'm not sure how the game is gonna pan out. WWK?

I don't know either, but otherwise I would assume he'd do album finals before moving on to the next record. So I assume in some manner he's throwing two sides into some kind of hopper.

Not convinced about Revolution as the other finalist. I'm thinking A Day In the Life.

That's a good possibility, too. (Even recognizing the epic power of ADITL, I think I dig "Good Morning" more off of Side 2.)

Now ADITL has all the pioneering hallmarks of TNK but with added song structure and melody, yet you choose a middling album track over it? Strange.

[Dr. Medulla]

Now ADITL has all the pioneering hallmarks of TNK but with added song structure and melody, yet you choose a middling album track over it? Strange.

The two songs are nothing alike in approach or aim. ADITL is a more valid argument for yours and Marky's re. ER. It marries two simple Paul and John songs, but buttresses them with an epic orchestral closure, and succeeds in a way that neither Yesterday nor ER approach.

I'd never argue that "Good Morning" has greater heft in either ambition or significance, but I like its basic rock snap. It's a silly aesthetic choice.

[Heston]

Now ADITL has all the pioneering hallmarks of TNK but with added song structure and melody, yet you choose a middling album track over it? Strange.

The two songs are nothing alike in approach or aim. ADITL is a more valid argument for yours and Marky's re. ER. It marries two simple Paul and John songs, but buttresses them with an epic orchestral closure, and succeeds in a way that neither Yesterday nor ER approach.

I'd never argue that "Good Morning" has greater heft in either ambition or significance, but I like its basic rock snap. It's a silly aesthetic choice.

C'mon, the whole avant garde nature of the orchestra on ADILT was shit that had never been heard before in pop music. You say it was two simple songs put together but I think that is a disservice to both melodies. Incredible song AND groundbreaking. Good Morning is a trifle in comparison.

[Wolter]

I just want to add I despise Hey Jude with every fiber of my being and if it’s a fucking finalist this board should disband itself for the good of society.

[Heston]

I just want to add I despise Hey Jude with every fiber of my being and if it’s a fucking finalist this board should disband itself for the good of society.

That's how I feel about Let It Be.

[Dr. Medulla]

Now ADITL has all the pioneering hallmarks of TNK but with added song structure and melody, yet you choose a middling album track over it? Strange.

The two songs are nothing alike in approach or aim. ADITL is a more valid argument for yours and Marky's re. ER. It marries two simple Paul and John songs, but buttresses them with an epic orchestral closure, and succeeds in a way that neither Yesterday nor ER approach.

I'd never argue that "Good Morning" has greater heft in either ambition or significance, but I like its basic rock snap. It's a silly aesthetic choice.

C'mon, the whole avant garde nature of the orchestra on ADILT was shit that had never been heard before in pop music. You say it was two simple songs put together but I think that is a disservice to both melodies. Incredible song AND groundbreaking. Good Morning is a trifle in comparison.

I'm not denying anything. As I understand it, both Lennon and McCartney said that they had two basically unfinished songs that they didn't know how to develop, so they melded them together, and the whole thing ends with that smashing crescendo. It's not especially avant, tho. Then as now, it's a piece that impressed older critics more than youth.

But you can't keep playing the "never been heard before" card when it comes to the orchestrated part. You and Marky already argued that for ER (and ignored it for Yesterday). At a certain point, that bullet's been fired and can't be again.

And I repeat that me digging "Good Morning" is personal enjoyment, not significance. If I want epic, yeah, last track on the album. If I want a zippy rock tune, a few songs earlier is where I go.

[Dr. Medulla]

I just want to add I despise Hey Jude with every fiber of my being and if it’s a fucking finalist this board should disband itself for the good of society.

That's how I feel about Let It Be.

I'm high on both songs, tho I totally understand why people hate them. Paul in '68 and '69 was at his peak, especially as John was considerably less engaged. He held onto the faith of unity and peace if John and George were peeling away.

[Heston]

Now ADITL has all the pioneering hallmarks of TNK but with added song structure and melody, yet you choose a middling album track over it? Strange.

The two songs are nothing alike in approach or aim. ADITL is a more valid argument for yours and Marky's re. ER. It marries two simple Paul and John songs, but buttresses them with an epic orchestral closure, and succeeds in a way that neither Yesterday nor ER approach.

I'd never argue that "Good Morning" has greater heft in either ambition or significance, but I like its basic rock snap. It's a silly aesthetic choice.

C'mon, the whole avant garde nature of the orchestra on ADILT was shit that had never been heard before in pop music. You say it was two simple songs put together but I think that is a disservice to both melodies. Incredible song AND groundbreaking. Good Morning is a trifle in comparison.

I'm not denying anything. As I understand it, both Lennon and McCartney said that they had two basically unfinished songs that they didn't know how to develop, so they melded them together, and the whole thing ends with that smashing crescendo. It's not especially avant, tho. Then as now, it's a piece that impressed older critics more than youth.

But you can't keep playing the "never been heard before" card when it comes to the orchestrated part. You and Marky already argued that for ER (and ignored it for Yesterday). At a certain point, that bullet's been fired and can't be again.

But your championing of TNK entails a song that uses tape loops and backwards guitar, both of which had been used before in popular music. And a drum pattern that the Beatles themselves had used before. Weren't they just recycling for the masses what was already popular in the underground? Also, Yesterday, ER and ADITL were all massively different in the way they used an orchestra.

[Dr. Medulla]

But your championing of TNK entails a song that uses tape loops and backwards guitar, both of which had been used before in popular music.

When? Seriously: when? Plenty of avant garde composers had been playing with that stuff, but a pop group (especially of the Beatles' stature)? That was a lot of people's exposure to that kind of weirdness.

And a drum pattern that the Beatles themselves had used before. Weren't they just recycling for the masses what was already popular in the underground?

Right—that's the significance. As the dominant pop music force, they were uniquely positioned to get kids to listen to something that otherwise they'd never hear. TNK's importance isn't in and of itself. You can find those kinds of experiments dating back to the 20s. It's that a pop band who had the attention of kids and critics reached into that and exposed them in the context of a pop record. They brought the avant garde into the mainstream.

Also, Yesterday, ER and ADITL were all massively different in the way they used an orchestra.

I'm sure to musos the distinctions are there, but to me it's all marrying basic pop song to orchestration. Y and ER are melancholy/schmaltzy, and ADITL is epic sounding. But it's still orchestra attached to pop band. That sounds like I'm diminishing them, but that isn't my point. It's that listeners wouldn't find those kinds of sounds jarring. Young people would have been very familiar with orchestrated pop music from their parents' tastes. As I said in the ER argument, it certainly expanded the palette of popular music—the rules of what a rock band could do—but it's the kind of approach that seeks respectability and approval from established music critics, not fucking with people's minds.

[Heston]

But your championing of TNK entails a song that uses tape loops and backwards guitar, both of which had been used before in popular music.

When? Seriously: when? Plenty of avant garde composers had been playing with that stuff, but a pop group (especially of the Beatles' stature)? That was a lot of people's exposure to that kind of weirdness.

And a drum pattern that the Beatles themselves had used before. Weren't they just recycling for the masses what was already popular in the underground?

Right—that's the significance. As the dominant pop music force, they were uniquely positioned to get kids to listen to something that otherwise they'd never hear. TNK's importance isn't in and of itself. You can find those kinds of experiments dating back to the 20s. It's that a pop band who had the attention of kids and critics reached into that and exposed them in the context of a pop record. They brought the avant garde into the mainstream.

Also, Yesterday, ER and ADITL were all massively different in the way they used an orchestra.

I'm sure to musos the distinctions are there, but to me it's all marrying basic pop song to orchestration. Y and ER are melancholy/schmaltzy, and ADITL is epic sounding. But it's still orchestra attached to pop band. That sounds like I'm diminishing them, but that isn't my point. It's that listeners wouldn't find those kinds of sounds jarring. Young people would have been very familiar with orchestrated pop music from their parents' tastes. As I said in the ER argument, it certainly expanded the palette of popular music—the rules of what a rock band could do—but it's the kind of approach that seeks respectability and approval from established music critics, not fucking with people's minds.

We're gonna have to agree to disagree on this one. By all accounts the sound of A Day In the Life blew people's minds back then. I haven't heard many records pre 1967 that sound like it.

TNK and ADITL both use "musique concrete" methods, which were uncommon in pop music before then, but not unheard of. My point was ADITL did it with some interesting musical aspects rather than the drone that is TNK.