Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

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gkbill
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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

Post by gkbill »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
21 Dec 2022, 7:26pm
gkbill wrote:
21 Dec 2022, 7:11pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
21 Dec 2022, 6:59pm
revbob wrote:
21 Dec 2022, 6:48pm
I agree with what you just said. Also if you have a problem show some kind of good faith to indicate that you're not relying on someone else to do all the work. This perhaps applies more to what I do ad when a colleague comes to me with a problem.
Part of my attitude is just me and my belief that we have a responsible to help others, but it's also a reaction to the cynicism of colleagues. When they say that students are lazy and don't care to learn, how much of that is rationalization for themselves being lazy and not wanting to put in the effort to teach? I mean, I know people who complain about students constantly questioning the grades they receive, but I don't think I've had that happen more than three times. I'd like to think it's because I give a shit-ton of feedback, explaining what works and what doesn't, and how to go about improving. If you explain how you arrived at your decision, they're not likely to just complain. They get that I'm not just slapping some random number down. It's about modelling good behaviour. I put in serious effort and will help anyone who seeks it out, but you gotta be there for yourself, too.
Hello,

I've paraphrased your last statement as I tell students I will work as hard for them as they do for themselves - I'm an effort-matcher. This is college, afterall. Everyone has the right to fail - some choose to exercise that right. My exams are not full of surprises. If you did well, you knew that leaving the exam. If you did poorly, you knew that as well. I have told classes I don't get paid extra to fail or pass students. I think I hold high standards that are attainable.
Generally, I agree. As the old saying in academia goes, you get the grade you deserve. And most students, thankfully, sit in an unambiguous spot for evaluation. But there have been some circumstances where I've held my breath because of odd situations. A couple times I've had students who were dynamos, week in and week out, for seminar discussions. As in, they were unofficial leaders of their classmates and just indispensable for the conversation. But come the term paper, for whatever reason, shit just fell apart. So I've had to hold my breath somewhat because, while they're no longer in A or A+ territory, butchering the term paper and sending them to a B or C+ doesn't seem right to me, even if the math would say so. Students think grading is a science, but it's more of an art, demonstrated when the cold numbers would generate a result that doesn't sit right for the overall assessment. I'll be honest about the quality of their work in the paper, but then explain my rationale for a higher grade than it deserves. I'm transparent about that stuff.
Hello,

This is why I've gone to having two of each assignment (two article critiques, two in-semester exams, one final). For the students you've described (really engaged, great leaders), if they've bombed the first, we have a discussion about what I was looking for in that assignment. Generally, it works. The students know better how to prepare and produce the ideas I'm after. It means I have to grade twice the assignments but it's worth it as those good students who struggled the first time around feel great when they've improved on a medium they struggled with and gotten a better grade.

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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

Post by Dr. Medulla »

gkbill wrote:
21 Dec 2022, 7:37pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
21 Dec 2022, 7:26pm
gkbill wrote:
21 Dec 2022, 7:11pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
21 Dec 2022, 6:59pm
revbob wrote:
21 Dec 2022, 6:48pm
I agree with what you just said. Also if you have a problem show some kind of good faith to indicate that you're not relying on someone else to do all the work. This perhaps applies more to what I do ad when a colleague comes to me with a problem.
Part of my attitude is just me and my belief that we have a responsible to help others, but it's also a reaction to the cynicism of colleagues. When they say that students are lazy and don't care to learn, how much of that is rationalization for themselves being lazy and not wanting to put in the effort to teach? I mean, I know people who complain about students constantly questioning the grades they receive, but I don't think I've had that happen more than three times. I'd like to think it's because I give a shit-ton of feedback, explaining what works and what doesn't, and how to go about improving. If you explain how you arrived at your decision, they're not likely to just complain. They get that I'm not just slapping some random number down. It's about modelling good behaviour. I put in serious effort and will help anyone who seeks it out, but you gotta be there for yourself, too.
Hello,

I've paraphrased your last statement as I tell students I will work as hard for them as they do for themselves - I'm an effort-matcher. This is college, afterall. Everyone has the right to fail - some choose to exercise that right. My exams are not full of surprises. If you did well, you knew that leaving the exam. If you did poorly, you knew that as well. I have told classes I don't get paid extra to fail or pass students. I think I hold high standards that are attainable.
Generally, I agree. As the old saying in academia goes, you get the grade you deserve. And most students, thankfully, sit in an unambiguous spot for evaluation. But there have been some circumstances where I've held my breath because of odd situations. A couple times I've had students who were dynamos, week in and week out, for seminar discussions. As in, they were unofficial leaders of their classmates and just indispensable for the conversation. But come the term paper, for whatever reason, shit just fell apart. So I've had to hold my breath somewhat because, while they're no longer in A or A+ territory, butchering the term paper and sending them to a B or C+ doesn't seem right to me, even if the math would say so. Students think grading is a science, but it's more of an art, demonstrated when the cold numbers would generate a result that doesn't sit right for the overall assessment. I'll be honest about the quality of their work in the paper, but then explain my rationale for a higher grade than it deserves. I'm transparent about that stuff.
Hello,

This is why I've gone to having two of each assignment (two article critiques, two in-semester exams, one final). For the students you've described (really engaged, great leaders), if they've bombed the first, we have a discussion about what I was looking for in that assignment. Generally, it works. The students know better how to prepare and produce the ideas I'm after. It means I have to grade twice the assignments but it's worth it as those good students who struggled the first time around feel great when they've improved on a medium they struggled with and gotten a better grade.
In one set of classes, I do just that. I assign three book reviews, which breaks up the grading over several assignments (but, ugh, means lots of grading for me) and means I can give two sets of feedback for improvement. And, you're right, it's a genuine life when someone who struggled early figures it out by the third review. The norms of a history seminar really mess with that, as a big term paper is expected. I've tried busting it up into smaller assignments in the past (proposal or annotated bibliography building to term paper), but I've never found that truly successful formula. My head says that some people just don't care or just want a D and three credits, but my heart says people can be won over to care more. My heart is always stupid.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Flex
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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

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So none of you guys subscribe to my pedagogical philosophy huh?
Image
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Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

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Flex wrote:
21 Dec 2022, 9:08pm
So none of you guys subscribe to my pedagogical philosophy huh?
Image
There's a difference between teaching and engaging with peers. :shifty:
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

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gkbill can back me up here, but it's a somewhat out-of-body experience of reading exams and seeing your words on the page albeit filtered thru cheesecloth and an ether rag.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

gkbill
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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

Post by gkbill »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
22 Dec 2022, 9:10pm
gkbill can back me up here, but it's a somewhat out-of-body experience of reading exams and seeing your words on the page albeit filtered thru cheesecloth and an ether rag.
Hello,

It's sometimes very interesting to see how students interpret concepts and put them into their own words - even more so when it's someone else's words.

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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

Post by Dr. Medulla »

gkbill wrote:
23 Dec 2022, 12:32pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
22 Dec 2022, 9:10pm
gkbill can back me up here, but it's a somewhat out-of-body experience of reading exams and seeing your words on the page albeit filtered thru cheesecloth and an ether rag.
Hello,

It's sometimes very interesting to see how students interpret concepts and put them into their own words - even more so when it's someone else's words.
Like, you recognize saying that, right down to the exact phrasing, but you're just taken aback at how it's been interpreted and applied.

It reminds me of taking a polisci intro class as an undergrad, and the prof mentioned how on a past exam a student said they didn't like Thomas Hobbes because he was "nasty, brutish, and short."
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Kory
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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

Post by Kory »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
23 Dec 2022, 12:35pm
gkbill wrote:
23 Dec 2022, 12:32pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
22 Dec 2022, 9:10pm
gkbill can back me up here, but it's a somewhat out-of-body experience of reading exams and seeing your words on the page albeit filtered thru cheesecloth and an ether rag.
Hello,

It's sometimes very interesting to see how students interpret concepts and put them into their own words - even more so when it's someone else's words.
Like, you recognize saying that, right down to the exact phrasing, but you're just taken aback at how it's been interpreted and applied.

It reminds me of taking a polisci intro class as an undergrad, and the prof mentioned how on a past exam a student said they didn't like Thomas Hobbes because he was "nasty, brutish, and short."
Wasn't he? (eyebrow raise)
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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Kory wrote:
23 Dec 2022, 2:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
23 Dec 2022, 12:35pm
gkbill wrote:
23 Dec 2022, 12:32pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
22 Dec 2022, 9:10pm
gkbill can back me up here, but it's a somewhat out-of-body experience of reading exams and seeing your words on the page albeit filtered thru cheesecloth and an ether rag.
Hello,

It's sometimes very interesting to see how students interpret concepts and put them into their own words - even more so when it's someone else's words.
Like, you recognize saying that, right down to the exact phrasing, but you're just taken aback at how it's been interpreted and applied.

It reminds me of taking a polisci intro class as an undergrad, and the prof mentioned how on a past exam a student said they didn't like Thomas Hobbes because he was "nasty, brutish, and short."
Wasn't he? (eyebrow raise)
Supposedly, he was over six feet and, like Clapton, treated the caterers well.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

Post by Dr. Medulla »

I was grading a book review from a student who previously had done meh, but knocked it out of the park on this one. Not enough to suggest plagiarism—the writing was student-level rough still—but the Boss casually mentioned AI writers, given that this is being discussed more and more by professors. I asked ChatGPT to do a review of the book and was a bit disturbed by how competentish it seemed. It was all pretty superficial, but better than a good third of the student reviews on the basics. I don't think the student used it—it was way too short and the student used some obviously personal contextual observations—but, holy crap, this is definitely going to be an issue going forward.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

Post by revbob »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 11:28am
I was grading a book review from a student who previously had done meh, but knocked it out of the park on this one. Not enough to suggest plagiarism—the writing was student-level rough still—but the Boss casually mentioned AI writers, given that this is being discussed more and more by professors. I asked ChatGPT to do a review of the book and was a bit disturbed by how competentish it seemed. It was all pretty superficial, but better than a good third of the student reviews on the basics. I don't think the student used it—it was way too short and the student used some obviously personal contextual observations—but, holy crap, this is definitely going to be an issue going forward.
I recently interviewed a guy and in the course of the interview he mentioned failing an IT certification test recently It was refreshing to hear that and I told him so, as it meant he didn't cheat.

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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

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revbob wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 12:32pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 11:28am
I was grading a book review from a student who previously had done meh, but knocked it out of the park on this one. Not enough to suggest plagiarism—the writing was student-level rough still—but the Boss casually mentioned AI writers, given that this is being discussed more and more by professors. I asked ChatGPT to do a review of the book and was a bit disturbed by how competentish it seemed. It was all pretty superficial, but better than a good third of the student reviews on the basics. I don't think the student used it—it was way too short and the student used some obviously personal contextual observations—but, holy crap, this is definitely going to be an issue going forward.
I recently interviewed a guy and in the course of the interview he mentioned failing an IT certification test recently It was refreshing to hear that and I told him so, as it meant he didn't cheat.
Or he's not good at cheating. :shifty:

The few times I've found plagiarism, it's because it's so obvious. One was a book review where the first three-quarters was dogshit, then, holy crap, what a wrap-up! So I just did a basic google search of the ending and, yup, word for word. C'mon, kids, it's a skill like any other.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

Post by gkbill »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 1:03pm
revbob wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 12:32pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 11:28am
I was grading a book review from a student who previously had done meh, but knocked it out of the park on this one. Not enough to suggest plagiarism—the writing was student-level rough still—but the Boss casually mentioned AI writers, given that this is being discussed more and more by professors. I asked ChatGPT to do a review of the book and was a bit disturbed by how competentish it seemed. It was all pretty superficial, but better than a good third of the student reviews on the basics. I don't think the student used it—it was way too short and the student used some obviously personal contextual observations—but, holy crap, this is definitely going to be an issue going forward.
I recently interviewed a guy and in the course of the interview he mentioned failing an IT certification test recently It was refreshing to hear that and I told him so, as it meant he didn't cheat.
Or he's not good at cheating. :shifty:

The few times I've found plagiarism, it's because it's so obvious. One was a book review where the first three-quarters was dogshit, then, holy crap, what a wrap-up! So I just did a basic google search of the ending and, yup, word for word. C'mon, kids, it's a skill like any other.
Hello,

Do you not use TurnItIn?

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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

Post by Dr. Medulla »

gkbill wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 1:15pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 1:03pm
revbob wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 12:32pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 11:28am
I was grading a book review from a student who previously had done meh, but knocked it out of the park on this one. Not enough to suggest plagiarism—the writing was student-level rough still—but the Boss casually mentioned AI writers, given that this is being discussed more and more by professors. I asked ChatGPT to do a review of the book and was a bit disturbed by how competentish it seemed. It was all pretty superficial, but better than a good third of the student reviews on the basics. I don't think the student used it—it was way too short and the student used some obviously personal contextual observations—but, holy crap, this is definitely going to be an issue going forward.
I recently interviewed a guy and in the course of the interview he mentioned failing an IT certification test recently It was refreshing to hear that and I told him so, as it meant he didn't cheat.
Or he's not good at cheating. :shifty:

The few times I've found plagiarism, it's because it's so obvious. One was a book review where the first three-quarters was dogshit, then, holy crap, what a wrap-up! So I just did a basic google search of the ending and, yup, word for word. C'mon, kids, it's a skill like any other.
Hello,

Do you not use TurnItIn?
I inquired whether the university subscribes to anti-plagiarism software or service and nope.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

gkbill
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Re: Rodney Dangerfield in Back to School

Post by gkbill »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 1:29pm
gkbill wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 1:15pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 1:03pm
revbob wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 12:32pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
24 Dec 2022, 11:28am
I was grading a book review from a student who previously had done meh, but knocked it out of the park on this one. Not enough to suggest plagiarism—the writing was student-level rough still—but the Boss casually mentioned AI writers, given that this is being discussed more and more by professors. I asked ChatGPT to do a review of the book and was a bit disturbed by how competentish it seemed. It was all pretty superficial, but better than a good third of the student reviews on the basics. I don't think the student used it—it was way too short and the student used some obviously personal contextual observations—but, holy crap, this is definitely going to be an issue going forward.
I recently interviewed a guy and in the course of the interview he mentioned failing an IT certification test recently It was refreshing to hear that and I told him so, as it meant he didn't cheat.
Or he's not good at cheating. :shifty:

The few times I've found plagiarism, it's because it's so obvious. One was a book review where the first three-quarters was dogshit, then, holy crap, what a wrap-up! So I just did a basic google search of the ending and, yup, word for word. C'mon, kids, it's a skill like any other.
Hello,

Do you not use TurnItIn?
I inquired whether the university subscribes to anti-plagiarism software or service and nope.
Hello,

I'd strongly recommend asking for TurnItIn. It's very good (detects all sources including previously student-written work submitted elsewhere). It makes grading easier as well (common comments can be dropped in on the paper).

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