I recall reading once that the difference between kitsch and camp is that kitsch is celebrated for being awful, it's always been awful. Black velvet Elvis paintings are kitsch. But camp is that which was once seriously valued, then became scorned, and then became valued because it was both once valued then scorned. So 1970s polyester leisure suits are camp because they were hip, then they became mocked, and now anyone who wears them because of that weird history does so for camp value. So pre-irony might be the original stage for something that becomes camp?
The IMCT observations thread
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Re: The IMCT observations thread
"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back in Whittier, they're not much bigger than two meters.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
Re: The IMCT observations thread
That makes sense. I wonder how that relates to post irony.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:01pmI recall reading once that the difference between kitsch and camp is that kitsch is celebrated for being awful, it's always been awful. Black velvet Elvis paintings are kitsch. But camp is that which was once seriously valued, then became scorned, and then became valued because it was both once valued then scorned. So 1970s polyester leisure suits are camp because they were hip, then they became mocked, and now anyone who wears them because of that weird history does so for camp value. So pre-irony might be the original stage for something that becomes camp?
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.
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Re: The IMCT observations thread
Not a clue. Something that doesn't consider an item's history and is valued only in the here and now?matedog wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:15pmThat makes sense. I wonder how that relates to post irony.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:01pmI recall reading once that the difference between kitsch and camp is that kitsch is celebrated for being awful, it's always been awful. Black velvet Elvis paintings are kitsch. But camp is that which was once seriously valued, then became scorned, and then became valued because it was both once valued then scorned. So 1970s polyester leisure suits are camp because they were hip, then they became mocked, and now anyone who wears them because of that weird history does so for camp value. So pre-irony might be the original stage for something that becomes camp?
"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back in Whittier, they're not much bigger than two meters.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
Re: The IMCT observations thread
So post-irony is genuinely enjoying something after a period where it was ironically enjoyed. I think Kelly Clarkson is an oft cited example. So it's kinda post-camp too by that point, I think. Perhaps potentially post-kitsch too? My head is starting to spin.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:34pmNot a clue. Something that doesn't consider an item's history and is valued only in the here and now?matedog wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:15pmThat makes sense. I wonder how that relates to post irony.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:01pmI recall reading once that the difference between kitsch and camp is that kitsch is celebrated for being awful, it's always been awful. Black velvet Elvis paintings are kitsch. But camp is that which was once seriously valued, then became scorned, and then became valued because it was both once valued then scorned. So 1970s polyester leisure suits are camp because they were hip, then they became mocked, and now anyone who wears them because of that weird history does so for camp value. So pre-irony might be the original stage for something that becomes camp?
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.
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Re: The IMCT observations thread
Based on your definition, I guess it would be post-kitsch or unkitsch or something like that. It'd be akin, I suppose, to how writers like Jim Thompson were dismissed as cheap and lazy writers in their time and then rediscovered and declared geniuses.matedog wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 4:07pmSo post-irony is genuinely enjoying something after a period where it was ironically enjoyed. I think Kelly Clarkson is an oft cited example. So it's kinda post-camp too by that point, I think. Perhaps potentially post-kitsch too? My head is starting to spin.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:34pmNot a clue. Something that doesn't consider an item's history and is valued only in the here and now?matedog wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:15pmThat makes sense. I wonder how that relates to post irony.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:01pmI recall reading once that the difference between kitsch and camp is that kitsch is celebrated for being awful, it's always been awful. Black velvet Elvis paintings are kitsch. But camp is that which was once seriously valued, then became scorned, and then became valued because it was both once valued then scorned. So 1970s polyester leisure suits are camp because they were hip, then they became mocked, and now anyone who wears them because of that weird history does so for camp value. So pre-irony might be the original stage for something that becomes camp?
"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back in Whittier, they're not much bigger than two meters.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Silent Majority
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Re: The IMCT observations thread
Unkitsch. I like it.
Re: The IMCT observations thread
Awfulmatedog wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 4:07pmSo post-irony is genuinely enjoying something after a period where it was ironically enjoyed. I think Kelly Clarkson is an oft cited example. So it's kinda post-camp too by that point, I think. Perhaps potentially post-kitsch too? My head is starting to spin.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:34pmNot a clue. Something that doesn't consider an item's history and is valued only in the here and now?matedog wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:15pmThat makes sense. I wonder how that relates to post irony.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:01pmI recall reading once that the difference between kitsch and camp is that kitsch is celebrated for being awful, it's always been awful. Black velvet Elvis paintings are kitsch. But camp is that which was once seriously valued, then became scorned, and then became valued because it was both once valued then scorned. So 1970s polyester leisure suits are camp because they were hip, then they became mocked, and now anyone who wears them because of that weird history does so for camp value. So pre-irony might be the original stage for something that becomes camp?
Re: The IMCT observations thread
Exactly. It's this out of touch elder mindset that allows for the formulation of post-irony. Without Rev, there's nothing to push back against.revbob wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 6:30pmAwfulmatedog wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 4:07pmSo post-irony is genuinely enjoying something after a period where it was ironically enjoyed. I think Kelly Clarkson is an oft cited example. So it's kinda post-camp too by that point, I think. Perhaps potentially post-kitsch too? My head is starting to spin.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:34pmNot a clue. Something that doesn't consider an item's history and is valued only in the here and now?matedog wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:15pmThat makes sense. I wonder how that relates to post irony.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:01pm
I recall reading once that the difference between kitsch and camp is that kitsch is celebrated for being awful, it's always been awful. Black velvet Elvis paintings are kitsch. But camp is that which was once seriously valued, then became scorned, and then became valued because it was both once valued then scorned. So 1970s polyester leisure suits are camp because they were hip, then they became mocked, and now anyone who wears them because of that weird history does so for camp value. So pre-irony might be the original stage for something that becomes camp?
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.
Re: The IMCT observations thread
You're 40 and Im not nearly as old as you think. That said yeah her music sucks, she might be a decent person but anyone crowned by Simon Douchbag isnt worth of my time.matedog wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 6:34pmExactly. It's this out of touch elder mindset that allows for the formulation of post-irony. Without Rev, there's nothing to push back against.revbob wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 6:30pmAwfulmatedog wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 4:07pmSo post-irony is genuinely enjoying something after a period where it was ironically enjoyed. I think Kelly Clarkson is an oft cited example. So it's kinda post-camp too by that point, I think. Perhaps potentially post-kitsch too? My head is starting to spin.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:34pmNot a clue. Something that doesn't consider an item's history and is valued only in the here and now?
Re: The IMCT observations thread
I'm barely 40!revbob wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 6:46pmYou're 40 and Im not nearly as old as you think. That said yeah her music sucks, she might be a decent person but anyone crowned by Simon Douchbag isnt worth of my time.matedog wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 6:34pmExactly. It's this out of touch elder mindset that allows for the formulation of post-irony. Without Rev, there's nothing to push back against.revbob wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 6:30pmAwfulmatedog wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 4:07pmSo post-irony is genuinely enjoying something after a period where it was ironically enjoyed. I think Kelly Clarkson is an oft cited example. So it's kinda post-camp too by that point, I think. Perhaps potentially post-kitsch too? My head is starting to spin.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 2:34pm
Not a clue. Something that doesn't consider an item's history and is valued only in the here and now?
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.
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Re: The IMCT observations thread
Is bathroom jail post-ironic or post-kitsch?
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
Re: The IMCT observations thread
And Im barely 50 so suck it old manmatedog wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 6:50pmI'm barely 40!revbob wrote: ↑15 May 2023, 6:46pmYou're 40 and Im not nearly as old as you think. That said yeah her music sucks, she might be a decent person but anyone crowned by Simon Douchbag isnt worth of my time.
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Re: The IMCT observations thread
"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back in Whittier, they're not much bigger than two meters.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Re: The IMCT observations thread
I joined this board 20 years ago today. Wow, those years flew over.
There's a tiny, tiny hopeful part of me that says you guys are running a Kaufmanesque long con on the board
- Dr. Medulla
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Re: The IMCT observations thread
It's roughly the same time span covering John Lennon forming the Beatles and being murdered. Which seemingly doesn't quite add up, and yet it's true.
"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back in Whittier, they're not much bigger than two meters.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft