The IMCT observations thread

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Marky Dread
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Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Marky Dread »

Silent Majority wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:20am
Does the guy no longer simp for Trump's & the Republican racist, sexist authoritarianism?
Are you asking me? If so I don't know. I'm not speaking for Steve here. Only the process of banning someone indefinitely. Steve approached me last year and others here to say he was wrong and wishes to be part of the community again. He wants the chance to apologise for previous actions. He has also said he has no wish to upset anyone.

I can respect totally why he was banned in the first place but can also respect the right for someone to see the error of their ways. If we are to improve things then this is positive to my way of thinking.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

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Dr. Medulla
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Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:16am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:12am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:03am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 7:57am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 7:03am


Dumb really because they can still visit here as a guest just can't post. Who'd have thought this place would back censorship when the individual has realised the error of his ways and is remorseful. Not the way forward in my book and makes me want to leave.
I don't make those decisions—this is Inder's playpen and I think he's given us 20+ years of reason to trust his judgement; it's not like he's a constantly meddling moderator, so when he does act it carries real weight that we should respect—but I'll say that Steve never demonstrated anything but contempt for the vast majority of people here. Like, sneering, dismissive contempt. Why he would even want to be able to be a part of a community he thought were a bunch of commie morons is beyond me. There are many people who have left us whose return would make the place better, but Steve ain't one of them.
I never saw those posts you mention. Not that I'm condoning those posts either. But I do sincerely believe in second chances for someone who has seen the error of their ways. If Steve wasn't remorseful for previous behaviour then I would agree with you. We have to leave room for those people that are willing to change. Plus it would be very simple if Steve didn't stick to his wish to change to remove him again.
Ultimately, not my call, but I don't see any injustice at work.
So you don't feel that Steve is capable of change? And if so that is a good thing worthy of a second go?
Honestly, I don't care. If he's become a better person, that's its own reward. Go off and do wonderful things for friends, family, and strangers. I mean that quite sincerely. Not all doors will immediately open after self-reflection, no matter how sincere. I've forgiven and provided second-chances for plenty of people—and been the recipient of the same for my poor behaviour—because they had shown me something originally that suggested they were worth that faith. But in Steve's case he never showed an iota of decency to people here, so there's nothing there for me to chew on, nothing to build off.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Marky Dread
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Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:28am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:16am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:12am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:03am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 7:57am


I don't make those decisions—this is Inder's playpen and I think he's given us 20+ years of reason to trust his judgement; it's not like he's a constantly meddling moderator, so when he does act it carries real weight that we should respect—but I'll say that Steve never demonstrated anything but contempt for the vast majority of people here. Like, sneering, dismissive contempt. Why he would even want to be able to be a part of a community he thought were a bunch of commie morons is beyond me. There are many people who have left us whose return would make the place better, but Steve ain't one of them.
I never saw those posts you mention. Not that I'm condoning those posts either. But I do sincerely believe in second chances for someone who has seen the error of their ways. If Steve wasn't remorseful for previous behaviour then I would agree with you. We have to leave room for those people that are willing to change. Plus it would be very simple if Steve didn't stick to his wish to change to remove him again.
Ultimately, not my call, but I don't see any injustice at work.
So you don't feel that Steve is capable of change? And if so that is a good thing worthy of a second go?
Honestly, I don't care. If he's become a better person, that's its own reward. Go off and do wonderful things for friends, family, and strangers. I mean that quite sincerely. Not all doors will immediately open after self-reflection, no matter how sincere. I've forgiven and provided second-chances for plenty of people—and been the recipient of the same for my poor behaviour—because they had shown me something originally that suggested they were worth that faith. But in Steve's case he never showed an iota of decency to people here, so there's nothing there for me to chew on, nothing to build off.
And your "I don't care" attitude won't allow Steve a chance to prove he was wrong in the first place. :disshame:
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

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Marky Dread
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Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Marky Dread »

.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Dr. Medulla
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Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:33am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:28am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:16am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:12am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:03am


I never saw those posts you mention. Not that I'm condoning those posts either. But I do sincerely believe in second chances for someone who has seen the error of their ways. If Steve wasn't remorseful for previous behaviour then I would agree with you. We have to leave room for those people that are willing to change. Plus it would be very simple if Steve didn't stick to his wish to change to remove him again.
Ultimately, not my call, but I don't see any injustice at work.
So you don't feel that Steve is capable of change? And if so that is a good thing worthy of a second go?
Honestly, I don't care. If he's become a better person, that's its own reward. Go off and do wonderful things for friends, family, and strangers. I mean that quite sincerely. Not all doors will immediately open after self-reflection, no matter how sincere. I've forgiven and provided second-chances for plenty of people—and been the recipient of the same for my poor behaviour—because they had shown me something originally that suggested they were worth that faith. But in Steve's case he never showed an iota of decency to people here, so there's nothing there for me to chew on, nothing to build off.
And your "I don't care" attitude won't allow Steve a chance to prove he was wrong in the first place. :disshame:
Is this for my benefit or his? I mean, why the hell should he need to prove anything to me and why would I benefit? I said above, if he’s a better person now, that’s it’s own reward. If he has engaged in some great program of self-reflection and -improvement, he should also know that his contemptuous behaviour in the past means burned bridges and that’s on him, not us. I respect your willingness to give him a second chance—seriously, I do—but this is not on us as a community.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Mimi
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Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Mimi »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 7:57am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 7:03am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 6:40am
Vimmattu wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 3:40am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
02 Feb 2023, 7:02pm


Four years ago? It was at Easter, as I recall.
The sacrifice of the Passover Lamb that is freedom of opinion and expression?

I don't know what happened, I was not around that time. I should then keep my mouth shut but a scene from Peaky Blinders just crossed my mind and I could not resist. :shifty:
But unlike the Romans, when Inder nails someone up, they ain't knocking around three days later.
Dumb really because they can still visit here as a guest just can't post. Who'd have thought this place would back censorship when the individual has realised the error of his ways and is remorseful. Not the way forward in my book and makes me want to leave.
I don't make those decisions—this is Inder's playpen and I think he's given us 20+ years of reason to trust his judgement; it's not like he's a constantly meddling moderator, so when he does act it carries real weight that we should respect—but I'll say that Steve never demonstrated anything but contempt for the vast majority of people here. Like, sneering, dismissive contempt. Why he would even want to be able to be a part of a community he thought were a bunch of commie morons is beyond me. There are many people who have left us whose return would make the place better, but Steve ain't one of them.
I'm going to back up Doc here. This is Inder's house and he makes the rules. We have no control over who comes and goes. It's been a long time, and I honestly can't remember anything about Steve's behavior, but there also might be more going on than we're privy to. I started a small message board a long time ago and the amount of shit that goes on behind the scenes made me hate people...on the internet.

Personally, I have no objection to whoever wants to join, but let's be real here, it's hard for a lot of folks to let go of being hurt especially if it was done in a way that felt more like scorched earth than taking the piss. I'm sure I'm not alone, but I have trust issues. If I feel like all you're going to do is attack me or twist my words or whatever, I'm not going to be singing a Ramones song about how I want you around, ya know.

I don't want you to go Markey.

Marky Dread
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Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 10:22am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:33am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:28am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:16am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:12am


Ultimately, not my call, but I don't see any injustice at work.
So you don't feel that Steve is capable of change? And if so that is a good thing worthy of a second go?
Honestly, I don't care. If he's become a better person, that's its own reward. Go off and do wonderful things for friends, family, and strangers. I mean that quite sincerely. Not all doors will immediately open after self-reflection, no matter how sincere. I've forgiven and provided second-chances for plenty of people—and been the recipient of the same for my poor behaviour—because they had shown me something originally that suggested they were worth that faith. But in Steve's case he never showed an iota of decency to people here, so there's nothing there for me to chew on, nothing to build off.
And your "I don't care" attitude won't allow Steve a chance to prove he was wrong in the first place. :disshame:
Is this for my benefit or his? I mean, why the hell should he need to prove anything to me and why would I benefit? I said above, if he’s a better person now, that’s it’s own reward. If he has engaged in some great program of self-reflection and -improvement, he should also know that his contemptuous behaviour in the past means burned bridges and that’s on him, not us. I respect your willingness to give him a second chance—seriously, I do—but this is not on us as a community.
Why would you need to benefit? It's not about an individual but the process of dealing with those who act poorly, badly and realise they did wrong. But if you dont care to rebuild the burned bridge fair enough.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Dr. Medulla
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Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 10:43am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 10:22am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 9:33am
And your "I don't care" attitude won't allow Steve a chance to prove he was wrong in the first place. :disshame:
Is this for my benefit or his? I mean, why the hell should he need to prove anything to me and why would I benefit? I said above, if he’s a better person now, that’s it’s own reward. If he has engaged in some great program of self-reflection and -improvement, he should also know that his contemptuous behaviour in the past means burned bridges and that’s on him, not us. I respect your willingness to give him a second chance—seriously, I do—but this is not on us as a community.
Why would you need to benefit? It's not about an individual but the process of dealing with those who act poorly, badly and realise they did wrong. But if you dont care to rebuild the burned bridge fair enough.
What I meant was that one reading of your comment about my “I don’t care” attitude is that I wouldn’t be able to experience a changed Steve. That is, I’d be losing out on something. That’s one interpretation, but not what you were going for, so it’s all good.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Marky Dread
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Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Marky Dread »

Mimi wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 10:30am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 7:57am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 7:03am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 6:40am
Vimmattu wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 3:40am


The sacrifice of the Passover Lamb that is freedom of opinion and expression?

I don't know what happened, I was not around that time. I should then keep my mouth shut but a scene from Peaky Blinders just crossed my mind and I could not resist. :shifty:
But unlike the Romans, when Inder nails someone up, they ain't knocking around three days later.
Dumb really because they can still visit here as a guest just can't post. Who'd have thought this place would back censorship when the individual has realised the error of his ways and is remorseful. Not the way forward in my book and makes me want to leave.
I don't make those decisions—this is Inder's playpen and I think he's given us 20+ years of reason to trust his judgement; it's not like he's a constantly meddling moderator, so when he does act it carries real weight that we should respect—but I'll say that Steve never demonstrated anything but contempt for the vast majority of people here. Like, sneering, dismissive contempt. Why he would even want to be able to be a part of a community he thought were a bunch of commie morons is beyond me. There are many people who have left us whose return would make the place better, but Steve ain't one of them.
I'm going to back up Doc here. This is Inder's house and he makes the rules. We have no control over who comes and goes. It's been a long time, and I honestly can't remember anything about Steve's behavior, but there also might be more going on than we're privy to. I started a small message board a long time ago and the amount of shit that goes on behind the scenes made me hate people...on the internet.

Personally, I have no objection to whoever wants to join, but let's be real here, it's hard for a lot of folks to let go of being hurt especially if it was done in a way that felt more like scorched earth than taking the piss. I'm sure I'm not alone, but I have trust issues. If I feel like all you're going to do is attack me or twist my words or whatever, I'm not going to be singing a Ramones song about how I want you around, ya know.

I don't want you to go Markey.
I genuinely respect how people feel and Steve didn't do anything to me. And I haven't seen the posts to judge him. But this isn't really about Steve but the process of banning individuals who act in a poor manner. Can they ever have a route back? It would appear not no matter how they may change and accept their failings.

By the way it's Marky. 😎
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Mimi
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Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Mimi »

Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 10:48am
Mimi wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 10:30am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 7:57am
Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 7:03am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 6:40am


But unlike the Romans, when Inder nails someone up, they ain't knocking around three days later.
Dumb really because they can still visit here as a guest just can't post. Who'd have thought this place would back censorship when the individual has realised the error of his ways and is remorseful. Not the way forward in my book and makes me want to leave.
I don't make those decisions—this is Inder's playpen and I think he's given us 20+ years of reason to trust his judgement; it's not like he's a constantly meddling moderator, so when he does act it carries real weight that we should respect—but I'll say that Steve never demonstrated anything but contempt for the vast majority of people here. Like, sneering, dismissive contempt. Why he would even want to be able to be a part of a community he thought were a bunch of commie morons is beyond me. There are many people who have left us whose return would make the place better, but Steve ain't one of them.
I'm going to back up Doc here. This is Inder's house and he makes the rules. We have no control over who comes and goes. It's been a long time, and I honestly can't remember anything about Steve's behavior, but there also might be more going on than we're privy to. I started a small message board a long time ago and the amount of shit that goes on behind the scenes made me hate people...on the internet.

Personally, I have no objection to whoever wants to join, but let's be real here, it's hard for a lot of folks to let go of being hurt especially if it was done in a way that felt more like scorched earth than taking the piss. I'm sure I'm not alone, but I have trust issues. If I feel like all you're going to do is attack me or twist my words or whatever, I'm not going to be singing a Ramones song about how I want you around, ya know.

I don't want you to go Markey.
I genuinely respect how people feel and Steve didn't do anything to me. And I haven't seen the posts to judge him. But this isn't really about Steve but the process of banning individuals who act in a poor manner. Can they ever have a route back? It would appear not no matter how they may change and accept their failings.

By the way it's Marky. 😎
I'm not responsible for any of my posts until afternoon, eastern standard time in 'murica.

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Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Flex »

Eh, he was a shit on the boards but if that's all it was I think he'd back by now. It's the obsessive, extended threats behind the scenes that turn the tide for me. He's behaved in, like, genuinely unsound manner before and it's not the obligation of the people that was directed to to open themselves back up to abusive behavior on the off chance Steve really means it.

And, frankly, if he has really changed then he'd be able to accept that as an abuser you aren't entitled to forgiveness from the people you abuse. That he is, apparently, fixated on coming back here is a huge red flag to me about how sincere his transformation really is.

I'm sorry Marky, when some of this roiled up a while ago for the first time I was inclined to take your position but I changed my mind after thinking about it. As someone who has had to go through a "I was a huge fuckup and (unintentionally) harmed others, sorry" process myself (although for totally different shit), I don't have a ton of sympathy for the idea that the people you wronged are obligated to do anything to help you feel better. I had to make peace with myself that I was trying to be a better person than I was, and some things just can't be taken back, and Steve's going to have to make that peace too. That's part of the process of being a better person, imho.

I hope this doesn't cause you to leave, Marky. I respect your desire to give Steve another chance, and I sincerely hope Steve has gotten the help he needs and is striving to be a better person. Obviously he needs to make his own decisions, but if he's reading this I'd politely suggest that part of his growth might entail finally putting this place in the rearview mirror.
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Marky Dread
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Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Marky Dread »

Flex wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 11:02am
Eh, he was a shit on the boards but if that's all it was I think he'd back by now. It's the obsessive, extended threats behind the scenes that turn the tide for me. He's behaved in, like, genuinely unsound manner before and it's not the obligation of the people that was directed to to open themselves back up to abusive behavior on the off chance Steve really means it.

And, frankly, if he has really changed then he'd be able to accept that as an abuser you aren't entitled to forgiveness from the people you abuse. That he is, apparently, fixated on coming back here is a huge red flag to me about how sincere his transformation really is.

I'm sorry Marky, when some of this roiled up a while ago for the first time I was inclined to take your position but I changed my mind after thinking about it. As someone who has had to go through a "I was a huge fuckup and (unintentionally) harmed others, sorry" process myself (although for totally different shit), I don't have a ton of sympathy for the idea that the people you wronged are obligated to do anything to help you feel better. I had to make peace with myself that I was trying to be a better person than I was, and some things just can't be taken back, and Steve's going to have to make that peace too. That's part of the process of being a better person, imho.

I hope this doesn't cause you to leave, Marky. I respect your desire to give Steve another chance, and I sincerely hope Steve has gotten the help he needs and is striving to be a better person. Obviously he needs to make his own decisions, but if he's reading this I'd politely suggest that part of his growth might entail finally putting this place in the rearview mirror.
I'm not suggesting anyone is obliged to do anything here. I also say this community is bigger than just the regulars that will at the very least engage in this discussion and show good will by giving it their time.

This isn't about ruffling any feathers on my part. I'm not passing any judgments on either side. Just looking at the process of excluding those we have a problem with. I feel as this is the internet where we don't look people in the eye and can banish someone with the click of a button it would be very easy to do so again. But I feel that those who wish to change, apologise and make amends in some small way should be given that chance at least.

I want a better place for us all.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

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Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Mimi »

Flex wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 11:02am
Eh, he was a shit on the boards but if that's all it was I think he'd back by now. It's the obsessive, extended threats behind the scenes that turn the tide for me. He's behaved in, like, genuinely unsound manner before and it's not the obligation of the people that was directed to to open themselves back up to abusive behavior on the off chance Steve really means it.

And, frankly, if he has really changed then he'd be able to accept that as an abuser you aren't entitled to forgiveness from the people you abuse. That he is, apparently, fixated on coming back here is a huge red flag to me about how sincere his transformation really is.

I'm sorry Marky, when some of this roiled up a while ago for the first time I was inclined to take your position but I changed my mind after thinking about it. As someone who has had to go through a "I was a huge fuckup and (unintentionally) harmed others, sorry" process myself (although for totally different shit), I don't have a ton of sympathy for the idea that the people you wronged are obligated to do anything to help you feel better. I had to make peace with myself that I was trying to be a better person than I was, and some things just can't be taken back, and Steve's going to have to make that peace too. That's part of the process of being a better person, imho.

I hope this doesn't cause you to leave, Marky. I respect your desire to give Steve another chance, and I sincerely hope Steve has gotten the help he needs and is striving to be a better person. Obviously he needs to make his own decisions, but if he's reading this I'd politely suggest that part of his growth might entail finally putting this place in the rearview mirror.
Exactly. There are a few people who I realize now I had hurt pretty badly in the past. Time, and growing up, I see how I was wrong. As contrite as I am and as much as I've grown as a person, I can't expect to be forgiven by these people. That's entirely up to them. I've learned my lesson, but another part of that lesson, and maybe even a bigger part, is that I have to accept that forgiveness isn't given just because I feel guilty.

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Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Marky Dread »

Mimi wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 11:20am
Flex wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 11:02am
Eh, he was a shit on the boards but if that's all it was I think he'd back by now. It's the obsessive, extended threats behind the scenes that turn the tide for me. He's behaved in, like, genuinely unsound manner before and it's not the obligation of the people that was directed to to open themselves back up to abusive behavior on the off chance Steve really means it.

And, frankly, if he has really changed then he'd be able to accept that as an abuser you aren't entitled to forgiveness from the people you abuse. That he is, apparently, fixated on coming back here is a huge red flag to me about how sincere his transformation really is.

I'm sorry Marky, when some of this roiled up a while ago for the first time I was inclined to take your position but I changed my mind after thinking about it. As someone who has had to go through a "I was a huge fuckup and (unintentionally) harmed others, sorry" process myself (although for totally different shit), I don't have a ton of sympathy for the idea that the people you wronged are obligated to do anything to help you feel better. I had to make peace with myself that I was trying to be a better person than I was, and some things just can't be taken back, and Steve's going to have to make that peace too. That's part of the process of being a better person, imho.

I hope this doesn't cause you to leave, Marky. I respect your desire to give Steve another chance, and I sincerely hope Steve has gotten the help he needs and is striving to be a better person. Obviously he needs to make his own decisions, but if he's reading this I'd politely suggest that part of his growth might entail finally putting this place in the rearview mirror.
Exactly. There are a few people who I realize now I had hurt pretty badly in the past. Time, and growing up, I see how I was wrong. As contrite as I am and as much as I've grown as a person, I can't expect to be forgiven by these people. That's entirely up to them. I've learned my lesson, but another part of that lesson, and maybe even a bigger part, is that I have to accept that forgiveness isn't given just because I feel guilty.
I get completely how both Flex and you feel Mimi. But this isn't about any kind of forgiveness.
This is about letting someone having a second chance here and it would be just as simple to ban them again. Maybe that is too much of a risk. But don't hold onto that hurt and allow it to affect your heart.

I'm not a religious guy at all and I accept that trust has to be earned.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
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Mimi
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Goddess of the Underworld
Posts: 8753
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:36pm
Location: Down in the pit

Re: The IMCT observations thread

Post by Mimi »

Marky Dread wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 11:40am
Mimi wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 11:20am
Flex wrote:
03 Feb 2023, 11:02am
Eh, he was a shit on the boards but if that's all it was I think he'd back by now. It's the obsessive, extended threats behind the scenes that turn the tide for me. He's behaved in, like, genuinely unsound manner before and it's not the obligation of the people that was directed to to open themselves back up to abusive behavior on the off chance Steve really means it.

And, frankly, if he has really changed then he'd be able to accept that as an abuser you aren't entitled to forgiveness from the people you abuse. That he is, apparently, fixated on coming back here is a huge red flag to me about how sincere his transformation really is.

I'm sorry Marky, when some of this roiled up a while ago for the first time I was inclined to take your position but I changed my mind after thinking about it. As someone who has had to go through a "I was a huge fuckup and (unintentionally) harmed others, sorry" process myself (although for totally different shit), I don't have a ton of sympathy for the idea that the people you wronged are obligated to do anything to help you feel better. I had to make peace with myself that I was trying to be a better person than I was, and some things just can't be taken back, and Steve's going to have to make that peace too. That's part of the process of being a better person, imho.

I hope this doesn't cause you to leave, Marky. I respect your desire to give Steve another chance, and I sincerely hope Steve has gotten the help he needs and is striving to be a better person. Obviously he needs to make his own decisions, but if he's reading this I'd politely suggest that part of his growth might entail finally putting this place in the rearview mirror.
Exactly. There are a few people who I realize now I had hurt pretty badly in the past. Time, and growing up, I see how I was wrong. As contrite as I am and as much as I've grown as a person, I can't expect to be forgiven by these people. That's entirely up to them. I've learned my lesson, but another part of that lesson, and maybe even a bigger part, is that I have to accept that forgiveness isn't given just because I feel guilty.
I get completely how both Flex and you feel Mimi. But this isn't about any kind of forgiveness.
This is about letting someone having a second chance here and it would be just as simple to ban them again. Maybe that is too much of a risk. But don't hold onto that hurt and allow it to affect your heart.

I'm not a religious guy at all and I accept that trust has to be earned.
This is going to be my last post on this, at least for now because dammit I have work to do, but I just read some of his posts from years back and they're pretty bad. I can see why everyone is apprehensive. Beyond how any of us feel, it's up to Inder. It's his call.

Peace out.

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