The most important Americans of the past 75 years
- WestwayKid
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Elvis
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- Dr. Medulla
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
My chief reservation wouldn't be that he speaks mainly to the converted—that doesn't quite make sense to me; we know he's converted plenty of people, directly or indirectly, to, say, a straight edge lifestyle—but that he's largely unknown and is representative of a rather tiny fragment of the population. That's not to dismiss his significance, but, like giving preference to those whose influence spans multiple decades, I think those who have influenced greater numbers counts for more. When doing these inner circle kinds of arguments, I do think quantification arguments do come into play.Marky Dread wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:14amAs fantastic as I think Ian Mackaye is his influence is diminished because he's only talking/playing to those mostly already converted.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 9:20amThis is a bit of a stretch for top 5, but I'd make a case for top 10: Ian MacKaye. He's offered and modeled a counter-hegemonic way life distinct from the dominant neoliberal order, but also something separate from conventional socialist ways. Very traditional small-r republican ideals of self-reliance, modesty, and virtue. The significance is in his living it and showing how it could be done.
I had this discussion with my son only yesterday. My son is a vegan and a fan of hardcore bands like Fugazi etc. He DJs at the hardcore events.
I argued with him that if Ed Sheeran wore a t shirt that supported vegans then overnight there would probably be more vegans than all the Fugazi shows put together. Or if Fugazi got a support slot with Ed they would reach a much wider audience. He wasn't impressed as he dislikes Ed Sheeran. I'm no fan either but explained in order to get your message across you need to use the biggest platform (sleeping with the enemy) to be heard. This in no way means that bands like Fugazi shouldn't try.
I argued that bands like the The Clash/Sex Pistols understood the need to use a big labels like CBS/EMI to get heard even though they were at odds with those organisations.
My son also likes Slipknot and I pointed out that Corey Taylor likes Ed Sheeran and there is talk of both artists working together. Again my son was not impressed.
Being a boring old fart dad can be fun.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Why? C'mon, answers need evidence.
"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back in Whittier, they're not much bigger than two meters.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Adele because she eats puppies and millions of people love her boring sterile music.
- Marky Dread
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Surely my Garth Brooks suggestion further up trumps both Elvis and Adele.
A: because Garth has outsold Elvis
B: Adele is English
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- WestwayKid
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
He forever changed American pop culture. He was counter culture before counter culture was a thing. When he first appeared, he was unlike anything most people had ever seen, and was a direct influence on everyone from John Lennon and Paul McCartney to Joe Strummer . He opened doors, stripped away cultural barriers, opened eyes. He changed everything: music, language, style. Lennon once said that before Elvis there was nothing and he's right. Sure, maybe someone else would have come along to make that cultural change, but then again - maybe he was the only person who could have done what he did, but his presence changed the world forever.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
The answer is me.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Yep sure he has converted a fair few people no argument. But those that attend a hardcore event are a minority and a small community. How far outside of those people are affected by his stance and ideals are limited. I would argue that primarily those people that have been converted to those ideals came for the music first. By no means a put down of a courageous musician/person. The difference with guys like Mackaye against a mainstream artist is those coming to watch him perform will be going to be entertained and informed. So when I say converted I'm referring to primarily his music then lifestyle secondary. Thinking people's music.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:26amMy chief reservation wouldn't be that he speaks mainly to the converted—that doesn't quite make sense to me; we know he's converted plenty of people, directly or indirectly, to, say, a straight edge lifestyle—but that he's largely unknown and is representative of a rather tiny fragment of the population. That's not to dismiss his significance, but, like giving preference to those whose influence spans multiple decades, I think those who have influenced greater numbers counts for more. When doing these inner circle kinds of arguments, I do think quantification arguments do come into play.Marky Dread wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:14amAs fantastic as I think Ian Mackaye is his influence is diminished because he's only talking/playing to those mostly already converted.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 9:20amThis is a bit of a stretch for top 5, but I'd make a case for top 10: Ian MacKaye. He's offered and modeled a counter-hegemonic way life distinct from the dominant neoliberal order, but also something separate from conventional socialist ways. Very traditional small-r republican ideals of self-reliance, modesty, and virtue. The significance is in his living it and showing how it could be done.
I had this discussion with my son only yesterday. My son is a vegan and a fan of hardcore bands like Fugazi etc. He DJs at the hardcore events.
I argued with him that if Ed Sheeran wore a t shirt that supported vegans then overnight there would probably be more vegans than all the Fugazi shows put together. Or if Fugazi got a support slot with Ed they would reach a much wider audience. He wasn't impressed as he dislikes Ed Sheeran. I'm no fan either but explained in order to get your message across you need to use the biggest platform (sleeping with the enemy) to be heard. This in no way means that bands like Fugazi shouldn't try.
I argued that bands like the The Clash/Sex Pistols understood the need to use a big labels like CBS/EMI to get heard even though they were at odds with those organisations.
My son also likes Slipknot and I pointed out that Corey Taylor likes Ed Sheeran and there is talk of both artists working together. Again my son was not impressed.
Being a boring old fart dad can be fun.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
- Marky Dread
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
- Wolter
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
You’ve been reading my wishlist.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
- Dr. Medulla
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Okay, I'm being the asshole professor here (seriously, sorry!), but what does he change and how? What exactly does he do to normalize behaviour or perspective in ways that others haven't? Just saying he changed everything is expecting your reader to fill in the blanks for you.WestwayKid wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:51amHe forever changed American pop culture. He was counter culture before counter culture was a thing. When he first appeared, he was unlike anything most people had ever seen, and was a direct influence on everyone from John Lennon and Paul McCartney to Joe Strummer . He opened doors, stripped away cultural barriers, opened eyes. He changed everything: music, language, style. Lennon once said that before Elvis there was nothing and he's right. Sure, maybe someone else would have come along to make that cultural change, but then again - maybe he was the only person who could have done what he did, but his presence changed the world forever.
"I used to bullseye womp rats in my T-16 back in Whittier, they're not much bigger than two meters.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
- WestwayKid
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Man, you're making me think this early on a cold morning .Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 11:21amOkay, I'm being the asshole professor here (seriously, sorry!), but what does he change and how? What exactly does he do to normalize behaviour or perspective in ways that others haven't? Just saying he changed everything is expecting your reader to fill in the blanks for you.WestwayKid wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:51amHe forever changed American pop culture. He was counter culture before counter culture was a thing. When he first appeared, he was unlike anything most people had ever seen, and was a direct influence on everyone from John Lennon and Paul McCartney to Joe Strummer . He opened doors, stripped away cultural barriers, opened eyes. He changed everything: music, language, style. Lennon once said that before Elvis there was nothing and he's right. Sure, maybe someone else would have come along to make that cultural change, but then again - maybe he was the only person who could have done what he did, but his presence changed the world forever.
Seriously, though, let me give it some thought.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Greatest is pretty subjective, I like the Ian idea if only because he articulates a credible alternative to late-era capitalism. Maybe his influence is still yet to be fully determined. You have guys like Beto O'Rourke talking about "fugazi capitalism" so I think there's something there.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
I see Elvis as nothing more than a more marketable face for mass appeal at that time.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 11:21amOkay, I'm being the asshole professor here (seriously, sorry!), but what does he change and how? What exactly does he do to normalize behaviour or perspective in ways that others haven't? Just saying he changed everything is expecting your reader to fill in the blanks for you.WestwayKid wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:51amHe forever changed American pop culture. He was counter culture before counter culture was a thing. When he first appeared, he was unlike anything most people had ever seen, and was a direct influence on everyone from John Lennon and Paul McCartney to Joe Strummer . He opened doors, stripped away cultural barriers, opened eyes. He changed everything: music, language, style. Lennon once said that before Elvis there was nothing and he's right. Sure, maybe someone else would have come along to make that cultural change, but then again - maybe he was the only person who could have done what he did, but his presence changed the world forever.
The Lennon quote I find infuriating and part insulting. Especially as The Beatles like many others covered so many songs of artists that were great way before Elvis and others sanitised some incredible rock n roll and blues music. I like loads of Elvis recordings but guys like Fats Domino and Chuck Berry etc were already breaking down barriers long before.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia