Im supposed to know this?Marky Dread wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:48amSurely my Garth Brooks suggestion further up trumps both Elvis and Adele.
A: because Garth has outsold Elvis
B: Adele is English
The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
That’s my point. IM articulates—and models—a distinct alternative to the dominant way of life. The idea does suffer for a lack of influence (the quant argument) and that’s why I’d hesitate, but the ideas and behaviours are very important for demonstrating both a resistant ideology to the past 75 years but also one that expresses much older American republican values. To those who say you have no choice to go along with ruthless profiteering and a transactional view of life, IM represents the rebuttal.Flex wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 11:37amGreatest is pretty subjective, I like the Ian idea if only because he articulates a credible alternative to late-era capitalism. Maybe his influence is still yet to be fully determined. You have guys like Beto O'Rourke talking about "fugazi capitalism" so I think there's something there.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
I'm no expert on this era, but I understand that he was the first superstar of what has become youth culture. Before rock and roll, I'm not really familiar with any big youth culture. What the hell were teens into in the 40s? Fuck if I know. This I think really extends into all popular music and trends associated with young people that have come since: rock and roll (obviously), hip hop, Tik Tok, etc that dominate our culture to this day.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 11:21amOkay, I'm being the asshole professor here (seriously, sorry!), but what does he change and how? What exactly does he do to normalize behaviour or perspective in ways that others haven't? Just saying he changed everything is expecting your reader to fill in the blanks for you.WestwayKid wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:51amHe forever changed American pop culture. He was counter culture before counter culture was a thing. When he first appeared, he was unlike anything most people had ever seen, and was a direct influence on everyone from John Lennon and Paul McCartney to Joe Strummer . He opened doors, stripped away cultural barriers, opened eyes. He changed everything: music, language, style. Lennon once said that before Elvis there was nothing and he's right. Sure, maybe someone else would have come along to make that cultural change, but then again - maybe he was the only person who could have done what he did, but his presence changed the world forever.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
My apologies if I came off as a jerk, but I also the think the bar is higher with the more “obvious” answers. Elvis is important, but is he important in ways that go on for decades in ways that others don’t? The exercise is trickier than it first appears, I think.WestwayKid wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 11:34amMan, you're making me think this early on a cold morning .Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 11:21amOkay, I'm being the asshole professor here (seriously, sorry!), but what does he change and how? What exactly does he do to normalize behaviour or perspective in ways that others haven't? Just saying he changed everything is expecting your reader to fill in the blanks for you.WestwayKid wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:51amHe forever changed American pop culture. He was counter culture before counter culture was a thing. When he first appeared, he was unlike anything most people had ever seen, and was a direct influence on everyone from John Lennon and Paul McCartney to Joe Strummer . He opened doors, stripped away cultural barriers, opened eyes. He changed everything: music, language, style. Lennon once said that before Elvis there was nothing and he's right. Sure, maybe someone else would have come along to make that cultural change, but then again - maybe he was the only person who could have done what he did, but his presence changed the world forever.
Seriously, though, let me give it some thought.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Frank Sinatra has just as credible a claim for being a teen idol who made girls swoon and all that.matedog wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:06pmI'm no expert on this era, but I understand that he was the first superstar of what has become youth culture. Before rock and roll, I'm not really familiar with any big youth culture. What the hell were teens into in the 40s? Fuck if I know. This I think really extends into all popular music and trends associated with young people that have come since: rock and roll (obviously), hip hop, Tik Tok, etc that dominate our culture to this day.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 11:21amOkay, I'm being the asshole professor here (seriously, sorry!), but what does he change and how? What exactly does he do to normalize behaviour or perspective in ways that others haven't? Just saying he changed everything is expecting your reader to fill in the blanks for you.WestwayKid wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:51amHe forever changed American pop culture. He was counter culture before counter culture was a thing. When he first appeared, he was unlike anything most people had ever seen, and was a direct influence on everyone from John Lennon and Paul McCartney to Joe Strummer . He opened doors, stripped away cultural barriers, opened eyes. He changed everything: music, language, style. Lennon once said that before Elvis there was nothing and he's right. Sure, maybe someone else would have come along to make that cultural change, but then again - maybe he was the only person who could have done what he did, but his presence changed the world forever.
"Ain't no party like an S Club party!'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Maybe Henrietta Lacks?Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑30 Nov 2022, 5:10pmBing Crosby is a leftfield kind of answer that appeals to me. I was thinking about tech/culture people and leaned towards Steve Jobs, but that seems kind of easy and probably gives him more significance than he deserves. So Crosby is in the running. I also like it because it's a music answer without doing the easy Elvis response.
I also thought about medicine, but drew a complete blank there. Like, maybe Watson (and Crick) for discovering DNA?
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
You seem to know way more about her than I do.revbob wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:03pmIm supposed to know this?Marky Dread wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:48amSurely my Garth Brooks suggestion further up trumps both Elvis and Adele.
A: because Garth has outsold Elvis
B: Adele is English
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
As a heartthrob sure, but he operated within a genre that wasn't teen/youth focused. His music wasn't "young people's music". That's the key distinction, that he was the first superstar of youth culture.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:10pmFrank Sinatra has just as credible a claim for being a teen idol who made girls swoon and all that.matedog wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:06pmI'm no expert on this era, but I understand that he was the first superstar of what has become youth culture. Before rock and roll, I'm not really familiar with any big youth culture. What the hell were teens into in the 40s? Fuck if I know. This I think really extends into all popular music and trends associated with young people that have come since: rock and roll (obviously), hip hop, Tik Tok, etc that dominate our culture to this day.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 11:21amOkay, I'm being the asshole professor here (seriously, sorry!), but what does he change and how? What exactly does he do to normalize behaviour or perspective in ways that others haven't? Just saying he changed everything is expecting your reader to fill in the blanks for you.WestwayKid wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:51amHe forever changed American pop culture. He was counter culture before counter culture was a thing. When he first appeared, he was unlike anything most people had ever seen, and was a direct influence on everyone from John Lennon and Paul McCartney to Joe Strummer . He opened doors, stripped away cultural barriers, opened eyes. He changed everything: music, language, style. Lennon once said that before Elvis there was nothing and he's right. Sure, maybe someone else would have come along to make that cultural change, but then again - maybe he was the only person who could have done what he did, but his presence changed the world forever.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Not quite true - he was seen as a bobbysoxer's idol at first emergence in the 40s. All the young women were screaming round the block to see him in New York theatres,matedog wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:29pmAs a heartthrob sure, but he operated within a genre that wasn't teen/youth focused. His music wasn't "young people's music". That's the key distinction, that he was the first superstar of youth culture.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:10pmFrank Sinatra has just as credible a claim for being a teen idol who made girls swoon and all that.matedog wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:06pmI'm no expert on this era, but I understand that he was the first superstar of what has become youth culture. Before rock and roll, I'm not really familiar with any big youth culture. What the hell were teens into in the 40s? Fuck if I know. This I think really extends into all popular music and trends associated with young people that have come since: rock and roll (obviously), hip hop, Tik Tok, etc that dominate our culture to this day.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 11:21amOkay, I'm being the asshole professor here (seriously, sorry!), but what does he change and how? What exactly does he do to normalize behaviour or perspective in ways that others haven't? Just saying he changed everything is expecting your reader to fill in the blanks for you.WestwayKid wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:51am
He forever changed American pop culture. He was counter culture before counter culture was a thing. When he first appeared, he was unlike anything most people had ever seen, and was a direct influence on everyone from John Lennon and Paul McCartney to Joe Strummer . He opened doors, stripped away cultural barriers, opened eyes. He changed everything: music, language, style. Lennon once said that before Elvis there was nothing and he's right. Sure, maybe someone else would have come along to make that cultural change, but then again - maybe he was the only person who could have done what he did, but his presence changed the world forever.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Yeah, Frank definitely started out as a Teen Idol. I think that was a distinction between him and Bing from just a few years earlier, frankly.
I dunno if I'd really nominate him, but how about Henry Kissinger for an honorable mention (if he qualifies, born in Germany but became a U.S. citizen). Besides being an actual advisor to essentially every president since he came into favor, his vision of realpolitik guided American foreign policy as its dominant outlook until at least the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and has been a key strand of it ever since, impacting essentially incalculable numbers of people on this planet (mostly for ill, I'd editorialize). He wasn't the only purveyor of realpolitik, obviously, but he seems to be its primary architect in the American context.
Addendum: Somewhat cynically, I'd similarly consider FDR for essentially co-opting labor from socialism and securing a capitalist future for America and setting us on our current, as of yet unbroken, path. The alpha to what the optimist might consider to be Ian Mackaye's omega.
I dunno if I'd really nominate him, but how about Henry Kissinger for an honorable mention (if he qualifies, born in Germany but became a U.S. citizen). Besides being an actual advisor to essentially every president since he came into favor, his vision of realpolitik guided American foreign policy as its dominant outlook until at least the dissolution of the Soviet Union, and has been a key strand of it ever since, impacting essentially incalculable numbers of people on this planet (mostly for ill, I'd editorialize). He wasn't the only purveyor of realpolitik, obviously, but he seems to be its primary architect in the American context.
Addendum: Somewhat cynically, I'd similarly consider FDR for essentially co-opting labor from socialism and securing a capitalist future for America and setting us on our current, as of yet unbroken, path. The alpha to what the optimist might consider to be Ian Mackaye's omega.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Well Ive been trying to raise awareness about the puppies but most people want to ignore it or sweep it under the rug.Marky Dread wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:17pmYou seem to know way more about her than I do.revbob wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:03pmIm supposed to know this?Marky Dread wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:48amSurely my Garth Brooks suggestion further up trumps both Elvis and Adele.
A: because Garth has outsold Elvis
B: Adele is English
Also, last 75 years? So that means from 1947 onward. Crosby died in 1977, so that's 30 years out of the last 75 that he had time to exert his influence. Sinatra had 50 years to leave his mark. Maybe if you're asking Sterling and Waldmyn they could no doubt go on about Crosby, Sinatra etc along with 5 cent cokes, malt shops and penny arcades. I guess what Im saying is no.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
revbob wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:59pmWell Ive been trying to raise awareness about the puppies but most people want to ignore it or sweep it under the rug.Marky Dread wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:17pmYou seem to know way more about her than I do.revbob wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:03pmIm supposed to know this?Marky Dread wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:48amSurely my Garth Brooks suggestion further up trumps both Elvis and Adele.
A: because Garth has outsold Elvis
B: Adele is English
I guess she owns a big rug.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Marky Dread wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 1:07pmMade from all the puppy furs.revbob wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:59pmWell Ive been trying to raise awareness about the puppies but most people want to ignore it or sweep it under the rug.Marky Dread wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:17pmYou seem to know way more about her than I do.revbob wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:03pmIm supposed to know this?Marky Dread wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:48am
Surely my Garth Brooks suggestion further up trumps both Elvis and Adele.
A: because Garth has outsold Elvis
B: Adele is English
I guess she owns a big rug.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
Yeah, Bing might scrape a little too far into the past. I dunno if I just wasn't doing the math right or not thinking that his most influential period would have been in the 30s (ditto FDR, obviously, predates the 75 year cutoff). But it's interesting to suggest that in order for someone to be important they have to be a ubiquitous household name presently. That would compel us to seriously consider Taylor Swift, no?
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years
No worries !Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 12:08pmMy apologies if I came off as a jerk, but I also the think the bar is higher with the more “obvious” answers. Elvis is important, but is he important in ways that go on for decades in ways that others don’t? The exercise is trickier than it first appears, I think.WestwayKid wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 11:34amMan, you're making me think this early on a cold morning .Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 11:21amOkay, I'm being the asshole professor here (seriously, sorry!), but what does he change and how? What exactly does he do to normalize behaviour or perspective in ways that others haven't? Just saying he changed everything is expecting your reader to fill in the blanks for you.WestwayKid wrote: ↑01 Dec 2022, 10:51amHe forever changed American pop culture. He was counter culture before counter culture was a thing. When he first appeared, he was unlike anything most people had ever seen, and was a direct influence on everyone from John Lennon and Paul McCartney to Joe Strummer . He opened doors, stripped away cultural barriers, opened eyes. He changed everything: music, language, style. Lennon once said that before Elvis there was nothing and he's right. Sure, maybe someone else would have come along to make that cultural change, but then again - maybe he was the only person who could have done what he did, but his presence changed the world forever.
Seriously, though, let me give it some thought.
I've been kicking this around in my head for a few hours. It seems part of the question of Elvis is what was there before him? He did not invent rock music. He also wasn't the first teen idol. He actually came to mind because we started watching the new Elvis biopic last night and I spent last week in Memphis. So, if he didn't invent rock music, what did he add to the genre? I think he helped bring the genre into the public sphere. It's not as easy as saying he helped shine a light on what had been primarily an African-American thing, because rock was more than just rhythm & blues, but I think he was the guy who bridged the rhythm & blues & country model that became what we know as rock & roll. In regards to the teen idol thing, I don't know enough about early Sinatra. Did he generate the level of mania (and fear) that Elvis did? I feel like Elvis challenged some very entrenched social mores around race, sexuality, masculinity, style. Again, I don't know enough about Sinatra to be able to say he did that in the way that Elvis did.
Last edited by WestwayKid on 01 Dec 2022, 1:31pm, edited 1 time in total.
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