The most important Americans of the past 75 years

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WestwayKid
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

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Elvis
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

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Marky Dread wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:14am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 9:20am
This is a bit of a stretch for top 5, but I'd make a case for top 10: Ian MacKaye. He's offered and modeled a counter-hegemonic way life distinct from the dominant neoliberal order, but also something separate from conventional socialist ways. Very traditional small-r republican ideals of self-reliance, modesty, and virtue. The significance is in his living it and showing how it could be done.
As fantastic as I think Ian Mackaye is his influence is diminished because he's only talking/playing to those mostly already converted.

I had this discussion with my son only yesterday. My son is a vegan and a fan of hardcore bands like Fugazi etc. He DJs at the hardcore events.

I argued with him that if Ed Sheeran wore a t shirt that supported vegans then overnight there would probably be more vegans than all the Fugazi shows put together. Or if Fugazi got a support slot with Ed they would reach a much wider audience. He wasn't impressed as he dislikes Ed Sheeran. I'm no fan either but explained in order to get your message across you need to use the biggest platform (sleeping with the enemy) to be heard. This in no way means that bands like Fugazi shouldn't try.

I argued that bands like the The Clash/Sex Pistols understood the need to use a big labels like CBS/EMI to get heard even though they were at odds with those organisations.

My son also likes Slipknot and I pointed out that Corey Taylor likes Ed Sheeran and there is talk of both artists working together. Again my son was not impressed.

Being a boring old fart dad can be fun. 🤣
My chief reservation wouldn't be that he speaks mainly to the converted—that doesn't quite make sense to me; we know he's converted plenty of people, directly or indirectly, to, say, a straight edge lifestyle—but that he's largely unknown and is representative of a rather tiny fragment of the population. That's not to dismiss his significance, but, like giving preference to those whose influence spans multiple decades, I think those who have influenced greater numbers counts for more. When doing these inner circle kinds of arguments, I do think quantification arguments do come into play.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

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WestwayKid wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:24am
Elvis
Why? C'mon, answers need evidence.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

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Adele because she eats puppies and millions of people love her boring sterile music.

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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

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revbob wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:40am
Adele because she eats puppies and millions of people love her boring sterile music.
Surely my Garth Brooks suggestion further up trumps both Elvis and Adele.

A: because Garth has outsold Elvis
B: Adele is English
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:28am
WestwayKid wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:24am
Elvis
Why? C'mon, answers need evidence.
He forever changed American pop culture. He was counter culture before counter culture was a thing. When he first appeared, he was unlike anything most people had ever seen, and was a direct influence on everyone from John Lennon and Paul McCartney to Joe Strummer ;) . He opened doors, stripped away cultural barriers, opened eyes. He changed everything: music, language, style. Lennon once said that before Elvis there was nothing and he's right. Sure, maybe someone else would have come along to make that cultural change, but then again - maybe he was the only person who could have done what he did, but his presence changed the world forever.
"They don't think it be like it is, but it do." - Oscar Gamble

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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

Post by Wolter »

The answer is me.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

Post by Marky Dread »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:26am
Marky Dread wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:14am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 9:20am
This is a bit of a stretch for top 5, but I'd make a case for top 10: Ian MacKaye. He's offered and modeled a counter-hegemonic way life distinct from the dominant neoliberal order, but also something separate from conventional socialist ways. Very traditional small-r republican ideals of self-reliance, modesty, and virtue. The significance is in his living it and showing how it could be done.
As fantastic as I think Ian Mackaye is his influence is diminished because he's only talking/playing to those mostly already converted.

I had this discussion with my son only yesterday. My son is a vegan and a fan of hardcore bands like Fugazi etc. He DJs at the hardcore events.

I argued with him that if Ed Sheeran wore a t shirt that supported vegans then overnight there would probably be more vegans than all the Fugazi shows put together. Or if Fugazi got a support slot with Ed they would reach a much wider audience. He wasn't impressed as he dislikes Ed Sheeran. I'm no fan either but explained in order to get your message across you need to use the biggest platform (sleeping with the enemy) to be heard. This in no way means that bands like Fugazi shouldn't try.

I argued that bands like the The Clash/Sex Pistols understood the need to use a big labels like CBS/EMI to get heard even though they were at odds with those organisations.

My son also likes Slipknot and I pointed out that Corey Taylor likes Ed Sheeran and there is talk of both artists working together. Again my son was not impressed.

Being a boring old fart dad can be fun. 🤣
My chief reservation wouldn't be that he speaks mainly to the converted—that doesn't quite make sense to me; we know he's converted plenty of people, directly or indirectly, to, say, a straight edge lifestyle—but that he's largely unknown and is representative of a rather tiny fragment of the population. That's not to dismiss his significance, but, like giving preference to those whose influence spans multiple decades, I think those who have influenced greater numbers counts for more. When doing these inner circle kinds of arguments, I do think quantification arguments do come into play.
Yep sure he has converted a fair few people no argument. But those that attend a hardcore event are a minority and a small community. How far outside of those people are affected by his stance and ideals are limited. I would argue that primarily those people that have been converted to those ideals came for the music first. By no means a put down of a courageous musician/person. The difference with guys like Mackaye against a mainstream artist is those coming to watch him perform will be going to be entertained and informed. So when I say converted I'm referring to primarily his music then lifestyle secondary. Thinking people's music.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

Post by Marky Dread »

Wolter wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:53am
The answer is me.
Only if you kill Flex.😉
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

Post by Wolter »

Marky Dread wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 11:01am
Wolter wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:53am
The answer is me.
Only if you kill Flex.😉
You’ve been reading my wishlist.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson

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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

Post by Marky Dread »

Wolter wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 11:03am
Marky Dread wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 11:01am
Wolter wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:53am
The answer is me.
Only if you kill Flex.😉
You’ve been reading my wishlist.
🤣
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

Dr. Medulla
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

Post by Dr. Medulla »

WestwayKid wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:51am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:28am
WestwayKid wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:24am
Elvis
Why? C'mon, answers need evidence.
He forever changed American pop culture. He was counter culture before counter culture was a thing. When he first appeared, he was unlike anything most people had ever seen, and was a direct influence on everyone from John Lennon and Paul McCartney to Joe Strummer ;) . He opened doors, stripped away cultural barriers, opened eyes. He changed everything: music, language, style. Lennon once said that before Elvis there was nothing and he's right. Sure, maybe someone else would have come along to make that cultural change, but then again - maybe he was the only person who could have done what he did, but his presence changed the world forever.
Okay, I'm being the asshole professor here (seriously, sorry!), but what does he change and how? What exactly does he do to normalize behaviour or perspective in ways that others haven't? Just saying he changed everything is expecting your reader to fill in the blanks for you.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 11:21am
WestwayKid wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:51am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:28am
WestwayKid wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:24am
Elvis
Why? C'mon, answers need evidence.
He forever changed American pop culture. He was counter culture before counter culture was a thing. When he first appeared, he was unlike anything most people had ever seen, and was a direct influence on everyone from John Lennon and Paul McCartney to Joe Strummer ;) . He opened doors, stripped away cultural barriers, opened eyes. He changed everything: music, language, style. Lennon once said that before Elvis there was nothing and he's right. Sure, maybe someone else would have come along to make that cultural change, but then again - maybe he was the only person who could have done what he did, but his presence changed the world forever.
Okay, I'm being the asshole professor here (seriously, sorry!), but what does he change and how? What exactly does he do to normalize behaviour or perspective in ways that others haven't? Just saying he changed everything is expecting your reader to fill in the blanks for you.
Man, you're making me think this early on a cold morning ;) .
Seriously, though, let me give it some thought.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

Post by Flex »

Greatest is pretty subjective, I like the Ian idea if only because he articulates a credible alternative to late-era capitalism. Maybe his influence is still yet to be fully determined. You have guys like Beto O'Rourke talking about "fugazi capitalism" so I think there's something there.
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Re: The most important Americans of the past 75 years

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 11:21am
WestwayKid wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:51am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:28am
WestwayKid wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:24am
Elvis
Why? C'mon, answers need evidence.
He forever changed American pop culture. He was counter culture before counter culture was a thing. When he first appeared, he was unlike anything most people had ever seen, and was a direct influence on everyone from John Lennon and Paul McCartney to Joe Strummer ;) . He opened doors, stripped away cultural barriers, opened eyes. He changed everything: music, language, style. Lennon once said that before Elvis there was nothing and he's right. Sure, maybe someone else would have come along to make that cultural change, but then again - maybe he was the only person who could have done what he did, but his presence changed the world forever.
Okay, I'm being the asshole professor here (seriously, sorry!), but what does he change and how? What exactly does he do to normalize behaviour or perspective in ways that others haven't? Just saying he changed everything is expecting your reader to fill in the blanks for you.
I see Elvis as nothing more than a more marketable face for mass appeal at that time.

The Lennon quote I find infuriating and part insulting. Especially as The Beatles like many others covered so many songs of artists that were great way before Elvis and others sanitised some incredible rock n roll and blues music. I like loads of Elvis recordings but guys like Fats Domino and Chuck Berry etc were already breaking down barriers long before.
Image

Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty


We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.

"Without the common people you're nothing"

Nos Sumus Una Familia

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