Whatcha reading?
- Dr. Medulla
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Re: Whatcha reading?
So easy to blame Mitzi Nietzsche just because of the name.
Edit: At some point in grad school, I learned that Hitler had a nephew who lived in England, where he worked as a travelling salesman. I mentioned it to a friend, who decided his name was Skip Hitler, and he quickly came up with this routine of Skip Hitler selling wingtips door to door. I’ve long forgotten what his name actually was, but he’ll always be Skip Hitler to me.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Silent Majority
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Re: Whatcha reading?
Oh yeah, I was equally just being a smartarse.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑06 Jan 2022, 7:35amI was mostly being a smartass, but I don't see why we don't treat Nazism as part of Nietzsche's (and Marx's) legacy. I don't like blame, tho, because that carries some moral condemnation from purposeful action. I don't blame the Beatles for Manson, but Manson is part of their legacy, and if we want to regard the Beatles for inspiring the counterculture and its liberating qualities, then we have to bind the Beatles, too, to its dark side. It's all sensible nuance to historical effects.Silent Majority wrote: ↑05 Jan 2022, 9:55pmI like the Doors, but Morrison's caricature as a pretentious dickhead with more teeth than talent is well earnt. Can we blame Nietzsche for those losers in 1930s Germany, though?Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑05 Jan 2022, 9:51pmCounterpoint: Jim Morrison.Silent Majority wrote: ↑05 Jan 2022, 9:43pm2) The Doors of Perception - Aldous Huxley. Paperback. 1954. An erudite man of letters enjoys mescaline and reports back, semi-journalistically, on what he saw and the philosophies his experience left him with. A nourishing read, funny at times as Huxley's tweedy style counterpoints against the mind bending nature of the subject matter, but ultimately a life affirming askew look at the world that surrounds us. We're given a chance to reassess our absurdity and look at the beauty of what could otherwise be mistaken for the most mundane view, whether that be a chair or the folds of fabric.
To engage with the interesting question with a degree of seriousness, the legacy of the Beatles would indeed take Manson and ELO and the city of Liverpool as it currently exists, but it strikes me as unfair as to trace responsibility to the four young men who did a fairly good job of not going insane and make good music in very strange circumstances and Huxley can't be blamed for all those poems about Jim Morrison's penis. Morrison's to blame, so we agree on that.
I do strongly disagree that the Nazis are part of Marx's legacy, to the point I wonder if that was a typo?
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Silent Majority
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Re: Whatcha reading?
Definitely picture Skip Hitler with a waxed back 1930s haircut, a blandly handsome face, and an old movie fast talk mid-atlantic/New England accent. "Skip Hitler, glad to know you!"Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑06 Jan 2022, 11:14amSo easy to blame Mitzi Nietzsche just because of the name.
Edit: At some point in grad school, I learned that Hitler had a nephew who lived in England, where he worked as a travelling salesman. I mentioned it to a friend, who decided his name was Skip Hitler, and he quickly came up with this routine of Skip Hitler selling wingtips door to door. I’ve long forgotten what his name actually was, but he’ll always be Skip Hitler to me.
- Dr. Medulla
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Re: Whatcha reading?
I don't mean responsibility in the sense of culpability—where some kind of atonement is expected—but as figures who exerted significant influence on their times (and beyond). We can regard it as tragic that their message of liberation and consciousness expansion was perverted in horrible ways, but they nevertheless spearheaded the way.Silent Majority wrote: ↑06 Jan 2022, 11:24amTo engage with the interesting question with a degree of seriousness, the legacy of the Beatles would indeed take Manson and ELO and the city of Liverpool as it currently exists, but it strikes me as unfair as to trace responsibility to the four young men who did a fairly good job of not going insane and make good music in very strange circumstances and Huxley can't be blamed for all those poems about Jim Morrison's penis. Morrison's to blame, so we agree on that.
Not at all. Marx was a prime mover—perhaps the prime mover—in rejecting both aristocracy and liberal democracy in favour of a mass politics that empowered the worker as active participant in politics, where the expected result would be nothing short of utopian. Bolshevism, Fascism, and Nazism all operated under these common principles. They were all perversions of what Marx envisioned, but that was, in no small part, because of his own delusion that he saw history as operating in a predictable way (which he had decoded). Marxism and other 19th c leftisms inspired radical rejection politics of the 20th century, in good ways and in bad.I do strongly disagree that the Nazis are part of Marx's legacy, to the point I wonder if that was a typo?
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
- Dr. Medulla
- Atheistic Epileptic
- Posts: 115998
- Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
- Location: Straight Banana, Idaho
Re: Whatcha reading?
Skip in his later years:Silent Majority wrote: ↑06 Jan 2022, 11:58amDefinitely picture Skip Hitler with a waxed back 1930s haircut, a blandly handsome face, and an old movie fast talk mid-atlantic/New England accent. "Skip Hitler, glad to know you!"Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑06 Jan 2022, 11:14amSo easy to blame Mitzi Nietzsche just because of the name.
Edit: At some point in grad school, I learned that Hitler had a nephew who lived in England, where he worked as a travelling salesman. I mentioned it to a friend, who decided his name was Skip Hitler, and he quickly came up with this routine of Skip Hitler selling wingtips door to door. I’ve long forgotten what his name actually was, but he’ll always be Skip Hitler to me.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Silent Majority
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Re: Whatcha reading?
I'm not convinced that an authoritarian or fascist government empowers a worker to even the extent that a liberal democracy would. Surely even the exclusive utopia that fascism sells to its absurd blockhead constituents is one based on a hierarchical structure where finally the right man is at the top and the parasitic elements have been banished. You can be king of your castle, certainly, but you can rest easy knowing that the country is being led by the correct elite and the borders maintained.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑06 Jan 2022, 12:04pmI don't mean responsibility in the sense of culpability—where some kind of atonement is expected—but as figures who exerted significant influence on their times (and beyond). We can regard it as tragic that their message of liberation and consciousness expansion was perverted in horrible ways, but they nevertheless spearheaded the way.Silent Majority wrote: ↑06 Jan 2022, 11:24amTo engage with the interesting question with a degree of seriousness, the legacy of the Beatles would indeed take Manson and ELO and the city of Liverpool as it currently exists, but it strikes me as unfair as to trace responsibility to the four young men who did a fairly good job of not going insane and make good music in very strange circumstances and Huxley can't be blamed for all those poems about Jim Morrison's penis. Morrison's to blame, so we agree on that.
Not at all. Marx was a prime mover—perhaps the prime mover—in rejecting both aristocracy and liberal democracy in favour of a mass politics that empowered the worker as active participant in politics, where the expected result would be nothing short of utopian. Bolshevism, Fascism, and Nazism all operated under these common principles. They were all perversions of what Marx envisioned, but that was, in no small part, because of his own delusion that he saw history as operating in a predictable way (which he had decoded). Marxism and other 19th c leftisms inspired radical rejection politics of the 20th century, in good ways and in bad.I do strongly disagree that the Nazis are part of Marx's legacy, to the point I wonder if that was a typo?
Whatever Marx's deficiencies, there was a hope in the abilities of the masses to maintain a decentralised power where they could reach their own potentiality, both as part of that mass and as individuals who can paint and fish and argue. No need for a Fuhrer, whatever Lenin would later build under intense extremities (and we can forgive him & Trotsky none of their atrocities, excuses cannot be made) and solidified and calcified under Stalin.
I can accept German fascism as part of Marx's legacy only in that the former was an outrageous over-reaction to the perceived and likely overstated threats to the landowners, aristos and middle class of 1930s Prussia from the latter. And I think that earlier radical thinkers like Paine & Rousseau were more anatagonistic to the entrenched capitalistic powers than history remembers.
- Dr. Medulla
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Re: Whatcha reading?
Certainly, in practice Communist, Fascist, and Nazi states do not empower the worker save for, I suppose, in their (deluded) mind. (Even today, that's all that Trumpist and their cousin movements offer supporters—you're winning in your own mind.) But they were/are all systems that initially relied on a radical new mass politics that didn't emerge until the 20th c and inspired by the rhetoric and analysis of Marxists.Silent Majority wrote: ↑06 Jan 2022, 1:57pmI'm not convinced that an authoritarian or fascist government empowers a worker to even the extent that a liberal democracy would. Surely even the exclusive utopia that fascism sells to its absurd blockhead constituents is one based on a hierarchical structure where finally the right man is at the top and the parasitic elements have been banished. You can be king of your castle, certainly, but you can rest easy knowing that the country is being led by the correct elite and the borders maintained.
Right. The big question is whether that hope has any basis of reality to it or is totalitarianism/authoritarianism the necessary end result of these kinds of radical mass movements. The track record of the 20th century isn't a good one. Marxists can keep saying, "That's not what Marx had in mind" or "That's not *real* communism," and they're right. But that doesn't mean that Marx's actual predictions won't keep resulting in heartbreak and horror whenever a Marxist-inspired state emerges. I still value Marx immensely for providing critical tools—I can't help but fall into his terminology and basic framework when critiquing capitalism—but as a political guide I'm highly averse.Whatever Marx's deficiencies, there was a hope in the abilities of the masses to maintain a decentralised power where they could reach their own potentiality, both as part of that mass and as individuals who can paint and fish and argue. No need for a Fuhrer, whatever Lenin would later build under intense extremities (and we can forgive him & Trotsky none of their atrocities, excuses cannot be made) and solidified and calcified under Stalin.
But neither Paine nor Rousseau achieved a lasting programmatic effect in a way that Marx has. Marx out-yelled everyone, in no small part because he was one of the great thinkers and writers of the 19th c. That's one of the great tragedies of the left—Marx continues to hold sway, as inspiration and as bogeyman. Getting past Marxism as political influence (or, at least, mature or scientific Marxism; the earlier, humanist Marx is more appealing) is the huge challenge. Mass politics is vital for meaningful change, but in a way that doesn't result in an erosion of liberties and dignity is the nut to crack.I can accept German fascism as part of Marx's legacy only in that the former was an outrageous over-reaction to the perceived and likely overstated threats to the landowners, aristos and middle class of 1930s Prussia from the latter. And I think that earlier radical thinkers like Paine & Rousseau were more anatagonistic to the entrenched capitalistic powers than history remembers.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Silent Majority
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Re: Whatcha reading?
But the fascists hated and fought the Marxists. Battling communists in the street is what got Mussolini & Hitler's boys a degree of bullying acceptability, with capital ultimately gambling as the brownshirts as the lesser evil. None of the leading Nazis would have wanted to read the Anti-Duhring,L or any of the Marx-inspired literature that followed after his death, it would have been (and probably was,) the first thing on the fires. I know, of course, that you know that.Certainly, in practice Communist, Fascist, and Nazi states do not empower the worker save for, I suppose, in their (deluded) mind. (Even today, that's all that Trumpist and their cousin movements offer supporters—you're winning in your own mind.) But they were/are all systems that initially relied on a radical new mass politics that didn't emerge until the 20th c and inspired by the rhetoric and analysis of Marxists.
If the argument is that Marx's deconstructions and explanations of how the capitalist mode of production works (which are the bulk of his contribution) along side the very vague ideas for future organisation he got from his socialist forbears which, if anything, he expressed in a nerdier and more fuddy duddy of a fashion than those passionate precedents, was so powerful that it unleashed the idea of 20th totalitarian police states, I simply don't see it. Fascism is imperialism and racism and authoritarianism, based on a fiction of a lost past that needs to be returned to. What did vast groups of people indulge in when taking power post-Marx that wasn't already in the world from the French Revolution? You answer this with
That programmatic effect just isn't in the guy with carbuncles work. I understand that we're not talking about ascribing blame, I'm just reluctant to concede that fascists are part of the legacy of a man who diametrically opposed them in every way.But neither Paine nor Rousseau achieved a lasting programmatic effect in a way that Marx has. Marx out-yelled everyone, in no small part because he was one of the great thinkers and writers of the 19th c. That's one of the great tragedies of the left—Marx continues to hold sway, as inspiration and as bogeyman. Getting past Marxism as political influence (or, at least, mature or scientific Marxism; the earlier, humanist Marx is more appealing) is the huge challenge. Mass politics is vital for meaningful change, but in a way that doesn't result in an erosion of liberties and dignity is the nut to crack.
- Dr. Medulla
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Re: Whatcha reading?
Where we're diverging, I think, is whether to emphasize agency or expression. These totalitarian movements (i.e., Bolshevism, Nazism, Fascism) all embraced a rejection of aristocracy and liberal democracy and valourized the idea of revolutionary mass politics to bring about a new age. All three relied on the active participation of the industrial working class in politics in ways not seen in most developed nations. There's a direct line to these fundamental precepts and Marx related to the agency of the mass. I see your critique of this as seeing the distinctions between the various totalitarian movements—Bolshevism nominally emphasized class, Nazism emphasized race, Fascism emphasized nationalism (tho there was bleed-thru between all three, esp. the latter two), each privileging different villains in history (tho, again, there's bleed-thru)—and making them a vital superiority to the common roots.*
That all of these movements would have appalled the old man is neither here nor there to me because history is littered with tragic ironies. Unleashing the power of the great mass of workers had no guarantees—as much as anything, that's what shocked so many Marxists who were guided by a redemptive faith in the working class once it recognized its grand mission. That's what guided the work of the Frankfurt scholars. Marx believed that the working class would finally liberate humanity from history, yet the 20th c suggested they were agents of a spiral into tyranny. I don't subscribe to Frankfurt's deeply pessimistic analysis of humanity (even if late capitalism makes it tempting sometimes), but they asked incredibly valuable questions and demanded Marxists interrogate their faith. Reading Dwight Macdonald, especially his The Root is Man, was vital for leading me to a non-Marxist, humanist leftism.
* I think I've mentioned this before, but I've long treasured the observation of a historian friend who liked to frame our lines of argument on historical question to whether you're a lumper or a splitter. That is, do you see commonalities or distinction. Nobody is ever consistently in one camp or another on every historical question, but it's a useful tool when figuring out where you are. On this, I'm a lumper and you're a splitter.
That all of these movements would have appalled the old man is neither here nor there to me because history is littered with tragic ironies. Unleashing the power of the great mass of workers had no guarantees—as much as anything, that's what shocked so many Marxists who were guided by a redemptive faith in the working class once it recognized its grand mission. That's what guided the work of the Frankfurt scholars. Marx believed that the working class would finally liberate humanity from history, yet the 20th c suggested they were agents of a spiral into tyranny. I don't subscribe to Frankfurt's deeply pessimistic analysis of humanity (even if late capitalism makes it tempting sometimes), but they asked incredibly valuable questions and demanded Marxists interrogate their faith. Reading Dwight Macdonald, especially his The Root is Man, was vital for leading me to a non-Marxist, humanist leftism.
* I think I've mentioned this before, but I've long treasured the observation of a historian friend who liked to frame our lines of argument on historical question to whether you're a lumper or a splitter. That is, do you see commonalities or distinction. Nobody is ever consistently in one camp or another on every historical question, but it's a useful tool when figuring out where you are. On this, I'm a lumper and you're a splitter.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Silent Majority
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Re: Whatcha reading?
3) Day of the Triffids - John Wyndham. Audiobook. 1951. An excellent post-apocalyptic novel about most of the world going blind and then get attacked by giant walking plants. Totally and brilliantly straight-faced in its approach, it is a definite influence on the zombie movies and TV shows that have since proliferated. Believable characters in a situation that rings true. Very much recommended.
- Dr. Medulla
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Re: Whatcha reading?
I listened to that several years ago and fully agree. Especially gripping and part of that early atomic age sense of doom for fucking with nature.Silent Majority wrote: ↑08 Jan 2022, 10:16am3) Day of the Triffids - John Wyndham. Audiobook. 1951. An excellent post-apocalyptic novel about most of the world going blind and then get attacked by giant walking plants. Totally and brilliantly straight-faced in its approach, it is a definite influence on the zombie movies and TV shows that have since proliferated. Believable characters in a situation that rings true. Very much recommended.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Silent Majority
- Singer-Songwriter Nancy
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Re: Whatcha reading?
Felt especially relevant post-pandemic, too.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑08 Jan 2022, 10:59amI listened to that several years ago and fully agree. Especially gripping and part of that early atomic age sense of doom for fucking with nature.Silent Majority wrote: ↑08 Jan 2022, 10:16am3) Day of the Triffids - John Wyndham. Audiobook. 1951. An excellent post-apocalyptic novel about most of the world going blind and then get attacked by giant walking plants. Totally and brilliantly straight-faced in its approach, it is a definite influence on the zombie movies and TV shows that have since proliferated. Believable characters in a situation that rings true. Very much recommended.
- Dr. Medulla
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Re: Whatcha reading?
Yeah, I imagine it would listening to it now. Ugh.Silent Majority wrote: ↑08 Jan 2022, 2:45pmFelt especially relevant post-pandemic, too.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑08 Jan 2022, 10:59amI listened to that several years ago and fully agree. Especially gripping and part of that early atomic age sense of doom for fucking with nature.Silent Majority wrote: ↑08 Jan 2022, 10:16am3) Day of the Triffids - John Wyndham. Audiobook. 1951. An excellent post-apocalyptic novel about most of the world going blind and then get attacked by giant walking plants. Totally and brilliantly straight-faced in its approach, it is a definite influence on the zombie movies and TV shows that have since proliferated. Believable characters in a situation that rings true. Very much recommended.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Silent Majority
- Singer-Songwriter Nancy
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Re: Whatcha reading?
4) The Prince - Niccolò Machiavelli. Audiobook, ready by Charles Dance. 1531. A re-read after a good few years. I originally was disappointed in this because I wanted a kind of handbook for supervillainy, but as a study of untrammeled pursuit of power over the previous thousand years, it's a good, quick read.