IMCT Running Club

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Dr. Medulla
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Re: IMCT Running Club

Post by Dr. Medulla »

matedog wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 2:59pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 2:31pm
matedog wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 2:27pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 2:23pm
matedog wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 2:20pm
Got a PR on my 3.75 mile run last Friday. I was shooting to break 27 minutes and did 27:02, so I'm not there yet! I suspect my speed flat 3 mile run the week before helped. Wally suggested I do faster training vs. long runs awhile ago and I never bothered since there aren't many flat places here that aren't crowded, plus I was mostly running for fun.

Mile 1 - 8:56
Mile 2 - 6:55
Mile 3 - 6:16
Mile 3.75 - 6:31 pace/mile

I've got over a year of doing this timed run and am surprised that I'm still getting PRs, though I've obviously slowed progress -
4/16/2020 - 31:50
10/16/2020 - 28:58
4/16/2021 - 27:02
Is it normal or intentional to have a much slower first mile? Whether rowing or cycling, I know my first five minutes or so are a bit more sluggish as things limber up. Even when I'm pushing myself at the end, whatever the fatigue, I feel like things are more responsive.
Mile one is a 400+ foot elevation climb. Mile 2 is flat and the rest is 400+ foot downhill. Otherwise, it shouldn't be that extremely different. When I went to the flat area, my splits were within seconds of each other, except kicking at the end like you mention.
Ah, I see. Holy fudge, starting off with a hill seems brutal to me.
I don't really have an option here for where I like to run. It does help that first half mile is rolling before just the straight 1/2 mile climb between 0.5 and 1 mile. I'd also prefer it at the beginning of the casual runs vs. the end just so the end is easier.
I had the opposite experience when I cycled outside. My notable hill was near the end of the ride, so I got to use one last burst of afterburner energy on it, knowing that I was almost done and didn't need to keep anything in reserve. I passed a crazy number of people on that hill because I was seriously pushing myself.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

matedog
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Re: IMCT Running Club

Post by matedog »

gkbill wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 2:56pm
matedog wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 2:27pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 2:23pm
matedog wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 2:20pm
Got a PR on my 3.75 mile run last Friday. I was shooting to break 27 minutes and did 27:02, so I'm not there yet! I suspect my speed flat 3 mile run the week before helped. Wally suggested I do faster training vs. long runs awhile ago and I never bothered since there aren't many flat places here that aren't crowded, plus I was mostly running for fun.

Mile 1 - 8:56
Mile 2 - 6:55
Mile 3 - 6:16
Mile 3.75 - 6:31 pace/mile

I've got over a year of doing this timed run and am surprised that I'm still getting PRs, though I've obviously slowed progress -
4/16/2020 - 31:50
10/16/2020 - 28:58
4/16/2021 - 27:02
Is it normal or intentional to have a much slower first mile? Whether rowing or cycling, I know my first five minutes or so are a bit more sluggish as things limber up. Even when I'm pushing myself at the end, whatever the fatigue, I feel like things are more responsive.
Mile one is a 400+ foot elevation climb. Mile 2 is flat and the rest is 400+ foot downhill. Otherwise, it shouldn't be that extremely different. When I went to the flat area, my splits were within seconds of each other, except kicking at the end like you mention.
Hello,

The first mile is always the hardest. I'm surprised you dropped ~2 minutes from mile 1 to mile 2. Starting with a decent hill makes the first mile doubly hard. There was a trail in Eugene that hard a real hard climb to begin - if you got past that, it was easy - really fun. I'm jealous of your times. How many miles/week are you doing?
I'm doing three runs a week. I stopped increasing my mileage so I'm doing
Wednesday - 8 or 10 miles
Friday - 3.75 mile timed
Sunday - 6 miles

Below is my elevation and pace mapped just to give you an idea about how substantial that first hill is. My 3 mile timed flat run splits were 6:46, 6:46, and 6:32, so I typically have pretty even splits when not doing stupid hills.
Attachments
2021-04-16 Pace Elevation.PNG
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

Sparky
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Re: IMCT Running Club

Post by Sparky »

matedog wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 2:20pm
Got a PR on my 3.75 mile run last Friday. I was shooting to break 27 minutes and did 27:02, so I'm not there yet! I suspect my speed flat 3 mile run the week before helped. Wally suggested I do faster training vs. long runs awhile ago and I never bothered since there aren't many flat places here that aren't crowded, plus I was mostly running for fun.

Mile 1 - 8:56
Mile 2 - 6:55
Mile 3 - 6:16
Mile 3.75 - 6:31 pace/mile

I've got over a year of doing this timed run and am surprised that I'm still getting PRs, though I've obviously slowed progress -
4/16/2020 - 31:50
10/16/2020 - 28:58
4/16/2021 - 27:02
That's a pretty good pace, particularly with the changes in elevation. I suck running about anything other than level ground and my first mile is always slower, even after warming up the old muscles and joints don't groove on the full force hit, gotta work up to it.

Dr. Medulla
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Re: IMCT Running Club

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An observation: Rowing is like drumming. The temptation is always there to go faster, but the results are worse. I know this—I fucking know this!—but it's so damned seductive to pick up the pace, but the quality of each stroke goes way down. In a 45 min. row, going 30–31 strokes per minute will generate a good .4–.5 kms more than 34–35 s/p/m. But I'm constantly slipping into the bad habit of going a little faster, even tho I can see my speed and distance drop accordingly. So unlike cycling, where I'm always pushing myself to go a little harder, with rowing I have to remind myself to keep it at a lower rate so that I can generate deeper pulls.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

matedog
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Re: IMCT Running Club

Post by matedog »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
04 May 2021, 11:48am
An observation: Rowing is like drumming. The temptation is always there to go faster, but the results are worse. I know this—I fucking know this!—but it's so damned seductive to pick up the pace, but the quality of each stroke goes way down. In a 45 min. row, going 30–31 strokes per minute will generate a good .4–.5 kms more than 34–35 s/p/m. But I'm constantly slipping into the bad habit of going a little faster, even tho I can see my speed and distance drop accordingly. So unlike cycling, where I'm always pushing myself to go a little harder, with rowing I have to remind myself to keep it at a lower rate so that I can generate deeper pulls.
That's interesting given your biking experience. Seems like it would be analogous. Maybe it's due to your relative less experience?
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

Dr. Medulla
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Re: IMCT Running Club

Post by Dr. Medulla »

matedog wrote:
04 May 2021, 11:58am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
04 May 2021, 11:48am
An observation: Rowing is like drumming. The temptation is always there to go faster, but the results are worse. I know this—I fucking know this!—but it's so damned seductive to pick up the pace, but the quality of each stroke goes way down. In a 45 min. row, going 30–31 strokes per minute will generate a good .4–.5 kms more than 34–35 s/p/m. But I'm constantly slipping into the bad habit of going a little faster, even tho I can see my speed and distance drop accordingly. So unlike cycling, where I'm always pushing myself to go a little harder, with rowing I have to remind myself to keep it at a lower rate so that I can generate deeper pulls.
That's interesting given your biking experience. Seems like it would be analogous. Maybe it's due to your relative less experience?
Partially experience, partially against my instincts/personality, which is to just fucking push yourself as much as possible. But it really is counterproductive with rowing if you're sacrificing a proper full stroke. With time I know I could build up my stamina and strength to up my stroke rate without compromising the pull, but for now I have to tell myself to focus on the quality of the pull, not how many per minute.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Flex
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Re: IMCT Running Club

Post by Flex »

Doc, I've been meaning to ask, with all the rowing have you been getting the urge to join the college team and change your name to Chet or Brayden or something?
In the words of Jean-Paul Sartre: "Au revoir, gopher."

Pex Lives!

matedog
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Re: IMCT Running Club

Post by matedog »

matedog wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 2:20pm
Got a PR on my 3.75 mile run last Friday. I was shooting to break 27 minutes and did 27:02, so I'm not there yet!
Beat my 27 minute goal last Friday at 26:51
Mile 1 - 8:56 last week vs 8:58
Mile 2 - 6:55 vs. 6:53
Mile 3 - 6:16 vs 6:15
Mile 3.75 - 6:31 pace/mile vs. 6:19

Looks like the main improvement was my kick at the end. It definitely felt like I was pushing it, but it's always good to beat my goals.

I also did a six mile run on Sunday. First mile was 10:53, last mile was 6:36. Gotta love those hills.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

matedog
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Re: IMCT Running Club

Post by matedog »

Flex wrote:
04 May 2021, 12:05pm
Doc, I've been meaning to ask, with all the rowing have you been getting the urge to join the college team and change your name to Chet or Brayden or something?
Doc's back be all like
Image
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

Sparky
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Re: IMCT Running Club

Post by Sparky »

matedog wrote:
04 May 2021, 12:09pm
matedog wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 2:20pm
Got a PR on my 3.75 mile run last Friday. I was shooting to break 27 minutes and did 27:02, so I'm not there yet!
Beat my 27 minute goal last Friday at 26:51
Mile 1 - 8:56 last week vs 8:58
Mile 2 - 6:55 vs. 6:53
Mile 3 - 6:16 vs 6:15
Mile 3.75 - 6:31 pace/mile vs. 6:19

Looks like the main improvement was my kick at the end. It definitely felt like I was pushing it, but it's always good to beat my goals.

I also did a six mile run on Sunday. First mile was 10:53, last mile was 6:36. Gotta love those hills.
Are you training for a 5k or something? That's a really good pace. I just started walking again, hoping to get back to running after my knee feels better, but my runs are usually in the 9:30 minute per mile range, SLOW.

matedog
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Re: IMCT Running Club

Post by matedog »

Sparky wrote:
04 May 2021, 12:32pm
matedog wrote:
04 May 2021, 12:09pm
matedog wrote:
21 Apr 2021, 2:20pm
Got a PR on my 3.75 mile run last Friday. I was shooting to break 27 minutes and did 27:02, so I'm not there yet!
Beat my 27 minute goal last Friday at 26:51
Mile 1 - 8:56 last week vs 8:58
Mile 2 - 6:55 vs. 6:53
Mile 3 - 6:16 vs 6:15
Mile 3.75 - 6:31 pace/mile vs. 6:19

Looks like the main improvement was my kick at the end. It definitely felt like I was pushing it, but it's always good to beat my goals.

I also did a six mile run on Sunday. First mile was 10:53, last mile was 6:36. Gotta love those hills.
Are you training for a 5k or something? That's a really good pace. I just started walking again, hoping to get back to running after my knee feels better, but my runs are usually in the 9:30 minute per mile range, SLOW.
Just something I started doing during COVID for shits and giggles and to set goals to force progress. It's been over a year, so I've been training pretty consistently for awhile now. Looks like my first run pace was 9:10/mile in March 2020 and I've brought it down to 7:09/mile.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

Dr. Medulla
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Re: IMCT Running Club

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Flex wrote:
04 May 2021, 12:05pm
Doc, I've been meaning to ask, with all the rowing have you been getting the urge to join the college team and change your name to Chet or Brayden or something?
My rowing name is Spencer. :sad:
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

gkbill
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Re: IMCT Running Club

Post by gkbill »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
04 May 2021, 11:48am
An observation: Rowing is like drumming. The temptation is always there to go faster, but the results are worse. I know this—I fucking know this!—but it's so damned seductive to pick up the pace, but the quality of each stroke goes way down. In a 45 min. row, going 30–31 strokes per minute will generate a good .4–.5 kms more than 34–35 s/p/m. But I'm constantly slipping into the bad habit of going a little faster, even tho I can see my speed and distance drop accordingly. So unlike cycling, where I'm always pushing myself to go a little harder, with rowing I have to remind myself to keep it at a lower rate so that I can generate deeper pulls.
Hello,

I'm a bit late to this (as usual!). One of the best pieces of advice I got regarding running was when I was training the first time for the Grand Canyon. A friend told me to run slower - if I ran too fast, considering the miles/week I wanted to get to, I'd break down. I used to carry a Garmin - got rid of that. Running became more fun (fun again). I suspect going too fast early causes a physical breakdown but there may also be a mental aspect involved. A higher pace can be anxiety-provoking and/or lessen your enjoyment. I say this acknowledging my goal was distance not time. If I was trying to get to a certain pace for a race, I'd probably have different thoughts.

Dr. Medulla
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Re: IMCT Running Club

Post by Dr. Medulla »

gkbill wrote:
04 May 2021, 12:49pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
04 May 2021, 11:48am
An observation: Rowing is like drumming. The temptation is always there to go faster, but the results are worse. I know this—I fucking know this!—but it's so damned seductive to pick up the pace, but the quality of each stroke goes way down. In a 45 min. row, going 30–31 strokes per minute will generate a good .4–.5 kms more than 34–35 s/p/m. But I'm constantly slipping into the bad habit of going a little faster, even tho I can see my speed and distance drop accordingly. So unlike cycling, where I'm always pushing myself to go a little harder, with rowing I have to remind myself to keep it at a lower rate so that I can generate deeper pulls.
Hello,

I'm a bit late to this (as usual!). One of the best pieces of advice I got regarding running was when I was training the first time for the Grand Canyon. A friend told me to run slower - if I ran too fast, considering the miles/week I wanted to get to, I'd break down. I used to carry a Garmin - got rid of that. Running became more fun (fun again). I suspect going too fast early causes a physical breakdown but there may also be a mental aspect involved. A higher pace can be anxiety-provoking and/or lessen your enjoyment. I say this acknowledging my goal was distance not time. If I was trying to get to a certain pace for a race, I'd probably have different thoughts.
That makes sense for building up stamina for a long distance run (or cycling). The mechanics is different with rowing, tho (or what I was trying to convey). Going faster isn't so much as hindering yourself by tiring down the road, but rather going faster (to get more strokes per minute) means not fully completing a stroke, whether not starting it at deepest point—as close to the front of the "boat"—or not letting yourself fully stretch out before the next stroke. Mainly the former, as that's where the biggest burst of energy comes from. My brain knows the importance of technique, of properly completing each stroke, but it's that cycling mindset of pushing yourself harder and harder to squeeze out every second that just plain works against you in rowing. But it's the difference between a 16.5 kph pace versus a 17 kph pace.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Flex
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Re: IMCT Running Club

Post by Flex »

For myself I've been finally getting back into a groove of runnong at least a few days a week, usually like 4-6ish miles at a time. It's been tough restarting, partly just getting a routine dialed back in after lots of months of disruption but then I also realized that I think I really scared myself from running in particularly bad weather. I can't remember if I mentioned it here but over the winter I did a run and gave myself hypothermia and I think I'm just realizing that made me pretty gunshy about getting back out there in freezing conditions. Luckily, the weather is finally getting nice so I that's making it easier to hit the road.

I'm theoretically training for a marathon in August but I dunno if I'll feel like I'm in a good spot by then. But it's nice to have some sort of target to aim for, at least for me.
In the words of Jean-Paul Sartre: "Au revoir, gopher."

Pex Lives!

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