Yeesh. I know Mel Brooks has argued that making fun of Hitler is to deny his power after his death, and I can appreciate the intent, but it only works if you properly understand the reality first. When you have successive generations, born after the war, growing up with a steady diet of bumbling Nazis, it becomes not demystifying via mockery but the superficial replacing the reality. When, say, anti-vaxxers blithely compare themselves to Jews in the 30s and 40s, I can't believe they make the comparison from a serious understanding of the Holocaust; it comes from superficiality.
Totally agree. Trying to understand the evil that has been lessened by the media etc over the decades since the war must be difficult for younger generations.
It should never be allowed to lose it's impact. By becoming desensitized to the evil we run the risk of it's recurrence.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
Throw in Bowie's flippant comments about Nazis and English punks' easy use of the swastika, the 70s music scene had some … curious … tolerance.
"English punks" let's not forget The Stooges, New York Dolls and the Dead Boys use of the swastika.
As for Leni she was the very definition of a walking abortion.
Siouxsie and the Banshees as well for "shock value".
There's an argument albeit a very poor one that the idea of demystifying the symbolism was where punk was coming from. The shock tactic though was a failed example of things not really being thought through.
The only other point I want to make is how tv, film and other media makes you desensitized to the evil reality and the pain that others feel towards the symbol. But no excuses are acceptable.
I agree with your assessment that it was a failed shock tactic.
I saw Siouxsie and the Banshees in 1980 in L.A., when they played "Israel" some asshat in the audience tossed an armband with a swastika on it up on stage. Siouxsie Sioux tossed it back and made some comments disavowing the hatred & evil it represents. Kind of made me think that she realized the mistake she'd made earlier in her career in embracing such a terrible thing.
God, what a mess, on the ladder of success
Where you take one step and miss the whole first rung
Throw in Bowie's flippant comments about Nazis and English punks' easy use of the swastika, the 70s music scene had some … curious … tolerance.
"English punks" let's not forget The Stooges, New York Dolls and the Dead Boys use of the swastika.
As for Leni she was the very definition of a walking abortion.
Siouxsie and the Banshees as well for "shock value".
There's an argument albeit a very poor one that the idea of demystifying the symbolism was where punk was coming from. The shock tactic though was a failed example of things not really being thought through.
The only other point I want to make is how tv, film and other media makes you desensitized to the evil reality and the pain that others feel towards the symbol. But no excuses are acceptable.
I agree with your assessment that it was a failed shock tactic.
I saw Siouxsie and the Banshees in 1980 in L.A., when they played "Israel" some asshat in the audience tossed an armband with a swastika on it up on stage. Siouxsie Sioux tossed it back and made some comments disavowing the hatred & evil it represents. Kind of made me think that she realized the mistake she'd made earlier in her career in embracing such a terrible thing.
Good for her.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
There's an argument albeit a very poor one that the idea of demystifying the symbolism was where punk was coming from. The shock tactic though was a failed example of things not really being thought through.
Very much agreed. Apart from seemingly advocating for Nazism (especially awful when there were NF assholes who didn't see that ironically or some kind of intellectual exercise), that kind of demystifying risks being stupidly nihilistic, where nothing means anything, good or bad. It's just dumb reactionary behaviour.
The only other point I want to make is how tv, film and other media makes you desensitized to the evil reality and the pain that others feel towards the symbol. But no excuses are acceptable.
Yeah, you look at movies and tv in the 60s and 70s and the stripping away of profound evil in Nazism is galling. Hogan's Heroes, for example, makes Nazis a bunch of bumbling imbeciles. Sure, it's a sitcom, but maybe that's just wrong?
Funny you say that about HH, because I used to love that show. In 2020 I watched a shit ton of docs about Nazis and I tried watching that show after. I couldn't do it. There was nothing funny about it at all. Same with JoJo Rabbit. Loved it pre-docs. Can't watch it now.
There's an argument albeit a very poor one that the idea of demystifying the symbolism was where punk was coming from. The shock tactic though was a failed example of things not really being thought through.
Very much agreed. Apart from seemingly advocating for Nazism (especially awful when there were NF assholes who didn't see that ironically or some kind of intellectual exercise), that kind of demystifying risks being stupidly nihilistic, where nothing means anything, good or bad. It's just dumb reactionary behaviour.
The only other point I want to make is how tv, film and other media makes you desensitized to the evil reality and the pain that others feel towards the symbol. But no excuses are acceptable.
Yeah, you look at movies and tv in the 60s and 70s and the stripping away of profound evil in Nazism is galling. Hogan's Heroes, for example, makes Nazis a bunch of bumbling imbeciles. Sure, it's a sitcom, but maybe that's just wrong?
Funny you say that about HH, because I used to love that show. In 2020 I watched a shit ton of docs about Nazis and I tried watching that show after. I couldn't do it. There was nothing funny about it at all. Same with JoJo Rabbit. Loved it pre-docs. Can't watch it now.
Same. I tried watching it several years ago, but I couldn't distance myself sufficiently from the reality. Even stuff like references to bombing campaigns and terror at being sent to the Eastern front—um, ha ha?
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
There's an argument albeit a very poor one that the idea of demystifying the symbolism was where punk was coming from. The shock tactic though was a failed example of things not really being thought through.
Very much agreed. Apart from seemingly advocating for Nazism (especially awful when there were NF assholes who didn't see that ironically or some kind of intellectual exercise), that kind of demystifying risks being stupidly nihilistic, where nothing means anything, good or bad. It's just dumb reactionary behaviour.
The only other point I want to make is how tv, film and other media makes you desensitized to the evil reality and the pain that others feel towards the symbol. But no excuses are acceptable.
Yeah, you look at movies and tv in the 60s and 70s and the stripping away of profound evil in Nazism is galling. Hogan's Heroes, for example, makes Nazis a bunch of bumbling imbeciles. Sure, it's a sitcom, but maybe that's just wrong?
IIRC, a lot of people involved in making Hogan's Heroes were either survivors or displaced persons themselves, so it was their way of coping with the trauma.
Got a Rake? Sure!
IMCT: Inane Middle-Class Twats - Dr. M
" *sigh* it's right when they throw the penis pump out the window." -Hoy
There's an argument albeit a very poor one that the idea of demystifying the symbolism was where punk was coming from. The shock tactic though was a failed example of things not really being thought through.
Very much agreed. Apart from seemingly advocating for Nazism (especially awful when there were NF assholes who didn't see that ironically or some kind of intellectual exercise), that kind of demystifying risks being stupidly nihilistic, where nothing means anything, good or bad. It's just dumb reactionary behaviour.
The only other point I want to make is how tv, film and other media makes you desensitized to the evil reality and the pain that others feel towards the symbol. But no excuses are acceptable.
Yeah, you look at movies and tv in the 60s and 70s and the stripping away of profound evil in Nazism is galling. Hogan's Heroes, for example, makes Nazis a bunch of bumbling imbeciles. Sure, it's a sitcom, but maybe that's just wrong?
IIRC, a lot of people involved in making Hogan's Heroes were either survivors or displaced persons themselves, so it was their way of coping with the trauma.
Right—Werner Klemperer, John Bannerman, Robert Clary, and Howard Caine were all Jewish, with Clary a survivor and Bannerman having lost his family in the camps. I'm not going to criticize their reasons—therapy and trauma is entirely personal—but the social effect is uncomfortable. Sure, they're just making a silly comedy, but they were also contributing to popular memory.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
A gripe: I ordered a nice shirt from an American shop last week and got a call from UPS the other day asking for a duty and an import charge plus their admin fees, so I coughed hard and ponied up another $100 via their site (they didn't give me a receipt or any acknowledgement, although the big PAY US NOW thing on the tracker was removed). It was supposed to come in yesterday, but the last update was "we tried to deliver it, but were unable to receive payment", then the UPS guy called and said he had a COD package for me. I'd innocently assumed that everything was OK and wasn't home, so they're gonna do the whole thing again today with god-knows-what additional charges tacked on.
A gripe: I ordered a nice shirt from an American shop last week and got a call from UPS the other day asking for a duty and an import charge plus their admin fees, so I coughed hard and ponied up another $100 via their site (they didn't give me a receipt or any acknowledgement, although the big PAY US NOW thing on the tracker was removed). It was supposed to come in yesterday, but the last update was "we tried to deliver it, but were unable to receive payment", then the UPS guy called and said he had a COD package for me. I'd innocently assumed that everything was OK and wasn't home, so they're gonna do the whole thing again today with god-knows-what additional charges tacked on.
I will never buy a nice shirt again.
What company is this? Seems like all that should have been taken care of at point-of-purchase.
A gripe: I ordered a nice shirt from an American shop last week and got a call from UPS the other day asking for a duty and an import charge plus their admin fees, so I coughed hard and ponied up another $100 via their site (they didn't give me a receipt or any acknowledgement, although the big PAY US NOW thing on the tracker was removed). It was supposed to come in yesterday, but the last update was "we tried to deliver it, but were unable to receive payment", then the UPS guy called and said he had a COD package for me. I'd innocently assumed that everything was OK and wasn't home, so they're gonna do the whole thing again today with god-knows-what additional charges tacked on.
I will never buy a nice shirt again.
It seems whenever the Boss orders something outside Canada, she gets hit with import fees; never happens to me. I've told her that Baby Jesus doesn't want her to buy things.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
The sound of justice is a brick through the window of the Nice Shirt Company.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
Can we take up a collection to buy that actual shirt for Inder?
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft