It adds to the argument that punk isn't populist, it's elitist. The more people doing it erodes its expression. As much as the spirit of DIY is embraced, it's vital that not that many actually do it themselves.Kory wrote: ↑21 Jun 2021, 4:01pmRight, I was going to mention something about how it's just a cliché now and probably has lost power as a result of that. You can just emulate a punk zine instead of doing it that way because you have to. It's a product like anything else, I suppose.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑21 Jun 2021, 1:55pmYeah, I largely agree. The initial punk-inspired zines were a product of necessity—access to tools, lack of formal training on do's and do not do's—and of a punk spirit of conventional ugliness and crudeness possessing a virtue in and of itself. But like so much punk music and fashion, it achieves a state of genre itself, with ideals and expectations built in. So is something "amateurish" done so because it's a reflection of the creator's abilities and ideas or is it done to fit into a style? And, of course, software changes everything. One of my students did their zine using a beta web app for making zines. Basically a desktop pub app but meant to evoke something photocopied over and over. It's suggestive that punk as a radical expression had a short shelf life and it's clearly gone bad now.
FAO Kory
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Re: FAO Kory
"Grab some wood, bub.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Re: FAO Kory
Just as a memory sparked from this convo, I have fond memories of xerox'ing show flyers and album inserts at our local kinko's back in high school. Probably at the very tail end of kids who found it easier to do that than just using software (we tried our hand at some rudimentary digital stuff too, but it was pretty unwieldy for high school kids that didn't really know what they were doing. My recollection is WYSIWYG type stuff hadn't really developed yet in an intuitive enough way for a layperson).
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
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Re: FAO Kory
I've mentioned, I think, that I had the students in my punk course submit a zine instead of a term paper. One that stood was done by someone using a typewriter and markers (then scanned for submission). The effect was striking compared to those who did it all using software. Not, I don't think, an amateur aesthetic so much as seeming more personal.
"Grab some wood, bub.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
Re: FAO Kory
Another opportunity to praise Devoto here—the value of punk was to introduce these ideals, but then to take what you need from that and do something else rather than straitjacketing yourself into being "punk." Worth noting, maybe, that the elitism in this case isn't by design but is unintentional? The bright side is that relatively few people DO want to do that kind of thing, so it takes a while before it loses its power, perhaps.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑21 Jun 2021, 4:06pmIt adds to the argument that punk isn't populist, it's elitist. The more people doing it erodes its expression. As much as the spirit of DIY is embraced, it's vital that not that many actually do it themselves.Kory wrote: ↑21 Jun 2021, 4:01pmRight, I was going to mention something about how it's just a cliché now and probably has lost power as a result of that. You can just emulate a punk zine instead of doing it that way because you have to. It's a product like anything else, I suppose.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑21 Jun 2021, 1:55pmYeah, I largely agree. The initial punk-inspired zines were a product of necessity—access to tools, lack of formal training on do's and do not do's—and of a punk spirit of conventional ugliness and crudeness possessing a virtue in and of itself. But like so much punk music and fashion, it achieves a state of genre itself, with ideals and expectations built in. So is something "amateurish" done so because it's a reflection of the creator's abilities and ideas or is it done to fit into a style? And, of course, software changes everything. One of my students did their zine using a beta web app for making zines. Basically a desktop pub app but meant to evoke something photocopied over and over. It's suggestive that punk as a radical expression had a short shelf life and it's clearly gone bad now.
"Suck our Earth dick, Martians!" —Doc
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Re: FAO Kory
I don't think it's intentional, which is to say conscious, but punks do think they've found a superior approach (for lack of a better word). Reveling in being ugly or a misfit is an ironic stance that masks a belief that in a just world they wouldn't be the freaks. But every artistic rebellion eventually gets codified and ruined by those who come after the originators. It's the difficult task of being inspired by the originators and not seeking to betray them, so things become fossilized as successive waves come in. Avant garde always gives way to dernier garde. This is why I tend to see punk as a therapeutic thing rather than a political one. Politics encourages that kind of standardization that ruins creativity.Kory wrote: ↑21 Jun 2021, 6:02pmAnother opportunity to praise Devoto here—the value of punk was to introduce these ideals, but then to take what you need from that and do something else rather than straitjacketing yourself into being "punk." Worth noting, maybe, that the elitism in this case isn't by design but is unintentional? The bright side is that relatively few people DO want to do that kind of thing, so it takes a while before it loses its power, perhaps.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑21 Jun 2021, 4:06pmIt adds to the argument that punk isn't populist, it's elitist. The more people doing it erodes its expression. As much as the spirit of DIY is embraced, it's vital that not that many actually do it themselves.Kory wrote: ↑21 Jun 2021, 4:01pmRight, I was going to mention something about how it's just a cliché now and probably has lost power as a result of that. You can just emulate a punk zine instead of doing it that way because you have to. It's a product like anything else, I suppose.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑21 Jun 2021, 1:55pmYeah, I largely agree. The initial punk-inspired zines were a product of necessity—access to tools, lack of formal training on do's and do not do's—and of a punk spirit of conventional ugliness and crudeness possessing a virtue in and of itself. But like so much punk music and fashion, it achieves a state of genre itself, with ideals and expectations built in. So is something "amateurish" done so because it's a reflection of the creator's abilities and ideas or is it done to fit into a style? And, of course, software changes everything. One of my students did their zine using a beta web app for making zines. Basically a desktop pub app but meant to evoke something photocopied over and over. It's suggestive that punk as a radical expression had a short shelf life and it's clearly gone bad now.
"Grab some wood, bub.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Re: FAO Kory
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
Re: FAO Kory
I've actually never done a hallucinogen. I'm naturally very anxious, so I fear a bad trip, despite my much calmer friends telling me I'll be fine.
"Suck our Earth dick, Martians!" —Doc
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Re: FAO Kory
That's me, plus I fear whether my glitchy brain would make things worse. My sister was telling me about some book written by Michael J. Fox's wife's brother about LSD as a miracle drug—like the early assessments—and claims there are no—zero, nada, zilch—negative effects. I started laughing at that point. Over twenty years after was completely clean, a good friend of ours would still occasionally suffer bad flashbacks. It doesn't have to be bad, but the notion that it's perfectly safe is nuts.
"Grab some wood, bub.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
Re: FAO Kory
I have a friend who follows his mom's advice of only doing "natural" drugs (ie, not chemical), and has told me that mushrooms would be better for me, but that I still shouldn't look in the mirror if I'm on them. At that point, I check out. I'm more of an opiate/tranquilizer kind of guy.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑23 Jul 2021, 12:38pmThat's me, plus I fear whether my glitchy brain would make things worse. My sister was telling me about some book written by Michael J. Fox's wife's brother about LSD as a miracle drug—like the early assessments—and claims there are no—zero, nada, zilch—negative effects. I started laughing at that point. Over twenty years after was completely clean, a good friend of ours would still occasionally suffer bad flashbacks. It doesn't have to be bad, but the notion that it's perfectly safe is nuts.
"Suck our Earth dick, Martians!" —Doc
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Re: FAO Kory
Yeah, me too. As intrigued as I am in the abstract, I lean towards calming my anxieties, not giving them more rein.Kory wrote: ↑23 Jul 2021, 12:54pmI have a friend who follows his mom's advice of only doing "natural" drugs (ie, not chemical), and has told me that mushrooms would be better for me, but that I still shouldn't look in the mirror if I'm on them. At that point, I check out. I'm more of an opiate/tranquilizer kind of guy.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑23 Jul 2021, 12:38pmThat's me, plus I fear whether my glitchy brain would make things worse. My sister was telling me about some book written by Michael J. Fox's wife's brother about LSD as a miracle drug—like the early assessments—and claims there are no—zero, nada, zilch—negative effects. I started laughing at that point. Over twenty years after was completely clean, a good friend of ours would still occasionally suffer bad flashbacks. It doesn't have to be bad, but the notion that it's perfectly safe is nuts.
"Grab some wood, bub.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Re: FAO Kory
don't shatter my image of you as "the guy who will microdose anything"
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
Re: FAO Kory
I'll basically try any drug eventually, but I'm wary of acid and shrooms. Micro is definitely the prefix in this case. I can tell I'm getting closer to trying shrooms at some point soonish. I have a few friends that want me to, I just have to make sure the environment is just so.
"Suck our Earth dick, Martians!" —Doc
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Re: FAO Kory
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
- Dr. Medulla
- Atheistic Epileptic
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Re: FAO Kory
"Grab some wood, bub.'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft