Currently watching.

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revbob
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by revbob »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
30 Sep 2020, 8:41pm
revbob wrote:
30 Sep 2020, 8:17pm
Im looking forward to the series on John Brown coming up on showtime next week.
I hadn't heard about that. John Brown was a fucking bloodthirsty lunatic. That he was an abolitionist doesn't change the fact that he was nuts.
Yeah I hear you but I tend to give him more leeway based on the circumstances of the times.

Silent Majority
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by Silent Majority »

How could you not be a bloodthirsty lunatic with antebellum slavery going on down the road?
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 7:20am
How could you not be a bloodthirsty lunatic with antebellum slavery going on down the road?
That's the same rationale that motivates Communists and Nazis. You can say that your cause is just but … well, only supervillains think they're evil.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

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Re: Currently watching.

Post by Silent Majority »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 7:39am
Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 7:20am
How could you not be a bloodthirsty lunatic with antebellum slavery going on down the road?
That's the same rationale that motivates Communists and Nazis. You can say that your cause is just but … well, only supervillains think they're evil.
I understand your position and admire the consistency of your pacifism, but I'm personally confident in (if not much else) the objective moral correctness of ending the institution of slavery.
Last edited by Silent Majority on 01 Oct 2020, 8:58am, edited 1 time in total.
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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 8:53am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 7:39am
Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 7:20am
How could you not be a bloodthirsty lunatic with antebellum slavery going on down the road?
That's the same rationale that motivates Communists and Nazis. You can say that your cause is just but … well, only supervillains think they're evil.
I understand your position and admire the consistency of your pacifism, but I'm personally confident in the objective correctness of putting your life on the line to cast a blow against human bondage.
There's a huge difference between fighting for justice, including sacrificing your life, versus rationalizing the indiscriminate slaughter of people. Brown and his family were not fussy about who got killed. In his view, his cause was true so all his actions were valid. That's fanaticism.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Silent Majority
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by Silent Majority »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 8:57am
Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 8:53am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 7:39am
Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 7:20am
How could you not be a bloodthirsty lunatic with antebellum slavery going on down the road?
That's the same rationale that motivates Communists and Nazis. You can say that your cause is just but … well, only supervillains think they're evil.
I understand your position and admire the consistency of your pacifism, but I'm personally confident in the objective correctness of putting your life on the line to cast a blow against human bondage.
There's a huge difference between fighting for justice, including sacrificing your life, versus rationalizing the indiscriminate slaughter of people. Brown and his family were not fussy about who got killed. In his view, his cause was true so all his actions were valid. That's fanaticism.
Vital to this case, however, is the fact that his cause was indeed true and, in precipitating the Civil War, Brown did more to free African-Americans than all the compromising abolitionist congressmen put together. Not only was he more useful than those who worked in the system, but I would say saner too.
… The ghetto prince of gutter poets

www.pexlives.libsyn.com/

Dr. Medulla
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 9:15am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 8:57am
Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 8:53am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 7:39am
Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 7:20am
How could you not be a bloodthirsty lunatic with antebellum slavery going on down the road?
That's the same rationale that motivates Communists and Nazis. You can say that your cause is just but … well, only supervillains think they're evil.
I understand your position and admire the consistency of your pacifism, but I'm personally confident in the objective correctness of putting your life on the line to cast a blow against human bondage.
There's a huge difference between fighting for justice, including sacrificing your life, versus rationalizing the indiscriminate slaughter of people. Brown and his family were not fussy about who got killed. In his view, his cause was true so all his actions were valid. That's fanaticism.
Vital to this case, however, is the fact that his cause was indeed true and, in precipitating the Civil War, Brown did more to free African-Americans than all the compromising abolitionist congressmen put together. Not only was he more useful than those who worked in the system, but I would say saner too.
That's a logic that only succeeds when you believe your side is correct. The same logic works to justify the Holocaust or the mass exterminations in the Soviet Union and China. If the cause is true, then the violence, regardless of scale, is justified. It necessarily has to reduce your target to abstractions to be removed for the greater good. That's the terrifying thing about ideology, especially apocalyptic ideology—the ease with which we can deny others' humanity. We should celebrate the end of slavery but not the means by which it occurred or the maniacs who revelled in murder.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

revbob
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by revbob »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 7:39am
Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 7:20am
How could you not be a bloodthirsty lunatic with antebellum slavery going on down the road?
That's the same rationale that motivates Communists and Nazis. You can say that your cause is just but … well, only supervillains think they're evil.
Ive had these discussions before with people (most without the intellect of Doc). And its often a discussion where peoples opinions are already formed and thats that. He was ahead of his time in a lot of ways and also obviously a product of his time. Unfortunately it is rare that unjust power cedes any of its power without violence or the threat of violence and owning and brutalizing people as was done during slavery is some of worst violence ever perpetrated. It is easy to see why some people would choose a violent path to battle it and I can't condemn those who did.

Again Im not really looking to get into a debate on the subject as I have had it numerous times over the years and this whiskey hangover isn't gonna help.

I think principled non violence can be a respectable position but I would also say the same for principled violence. And yeah that's all open to interpretation.

So how about that Yankees comeback last night?

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Re: Currently watching.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

revbob wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 9:47am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 7:39am
Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 7:20am
How could you not be a bloodthirsty lunatic with antebellum slavery going on down the road?
That's the same rationale that motivates Communists and Nazis. You can say that your cause is just but … well, only supervillains think they're evil.
Ive had these discussions before with people (most without the intellect of Doc). And its often a discussion where peoples opinions are already formed and thats that. He was ahead of his time in a lot of ways and also obviously a product of his time. Unfortunately it is rare that unjust power cedes any of its power without violence or the threat of violence and owning and brutalizing people as was done during slavery is some of worst violence ever perpetrated. It is easy to see why some people would choose a violent path to battle it and I can't condemn those who did.
My pacifism doesn't mean I don't see the good that comes from violence or that historically significant social change has been promoted via violent conflict. I don't regard the destruction of the Nazis or American slavery as a bad or illegitimate thing because it came via the gun. Nor do I condemn any soldier who participated in any war. (Hell, my mother was a war bride. My existence is due to WWII.) Soldiers made their choice and hopefully they carried out their work with a sense of duty rather than glee. That said, I can't celebrate that stuff. It should be mourned that it came to that. Soldiers are heroes to the degree that they agreed to perform horrible acts—their sacrifice is a part of their humanity. And I certainly can't celebrate someone who saw it just to murder civilians, particularly children.
So how about that Yankees comeback last night?
The world is still an evil place, yes.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

revbob
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by revbob »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 10:15am
revbob wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 9:47am
...
So how about that Yankees comeback last night?
The world is still an evil place, yes.
Yes as long as the Astros continue to exist, flourish and be in the AL.

Dr. Medulla
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

revbob wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 10:23am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 10:15am
revbob wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 9:47am
So how about that Yankees comeback last night?
The world is still an evil place, yes.
Yes as long as the Astros continue to exist, flourish and be in the AL.
So we agree—yesterday was a really shitty day in the AL.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

revbob
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by revbob »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 10:52am
revbob wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 10:23am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 10:15am
revbob wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 9:47am
So how about that Yankees comeback last night?
The world is still an evil place, yes.
Yes as long as the Astros continue to exist, flourish and be in the AL.
So we agree—yesterday was a really shitty day in the AL.
Well at least partially. The Cleveland Racist Names lost and the Houston Cheater Assholes won so yes there was good and bad.

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Re: Currently watching.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

revbob wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 10:55am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 10:52am
revbob wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 10:23am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 10:15am
revbob wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 9:47am
So how about that Yankees comeback last night?
The world is still an evil place, yes.
Yes as long as the Astros continue to exist, flourish and be in the AL.
So we agree—yesterday was a really shitty day in the AL.
Well at least partially. The Cleveland Racist Names lost and the Houston Cheater Assholes won so yes there was good and bad.
At best, one was a push. The Racist Names vs. the Steinbrenners is only a victory if they both lose.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

Silent Majority
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by Silent Majority »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 9:41am
Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 9:15am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 8:57am
Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 8:53am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 7:39am


That's the same rationale that motivates Communists and Nazis. You can say that your cause is just but … well, only supervillains think they're evil.
I understand your position and admire the consistency of your pacifism, but I'm personally confident in the objective correctness of putting your life on the line to cast a blow against human bondage.
There's a huge difference between fighting for justice, including sacrificing your life, versus rationalizing the indiscriminate slaughter of people. Brown and his family were not fussy about who got killed. In his view, his cause was true so all his actions were valid. That's fanaticism.
Vital to this case, however, is the fact that his cause was indeed true and, in precipitating the Civil War, Brown did more to free African-Americans than all the compromising abolitionist congressmen put together. Not only was he more useful than those who worked in the system, but I would say saner too.
That's a logic that only succeeds when you believe your side is correct. The same logic works to justify the Holocaust or the mass exterminations in the Soviet Union and China. If the cause is true, then the violence, regardless of scale, is justified. It necessarily has to reduce your target to abstractions to be removed for the greater good. That's the terrifying thing about ideology, especially apocalyptic ideology—the ease with which we can deny others' humanity. We should celebrate the end of slavery but not the means by which it occurred or the maniacs who revelled in murder.
I certainly don't expect to talk you round from an intellectual and principled choice on this, so I'm talking out loud to think through my own position at this point. In the historical case of John Brown, he didn't take to the sword and gun with glee, but with the same duty of a soldier fighting the nazis and he was right to do so, as events would prove. You will otherwise be left with Yeats' world where The Best Lack All Conviction, while the Worst Are Full Of Passionate Intensity. The position that we can't fight the slave holders lest we become as bad as them is one that continues a rotten status quo indefinitely.
… The ghetto prince of gutter poets

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Marky Dread
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by Marky Dread »

Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 12:34pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 9:41am
Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 9:15am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 8:57am
Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 8:53am


I understand your position and admire the consistency of your pacifism, but I'm personally confident in the objective correctness of putting your life on the line to cast a blow against human bondage.
There's a huge difference between fighting for justice, including sacrificing your life, versus rationalizing the indiscriminate slaughter of people. Brown and his family were not fussy about who got killed. In his view, his cause was true so all his actions were valid. That's fanaticism.
Vital to this case, however, is the fact that his cause was indeed true and, in precipitating the Civil War, Brown did more to free African-Americans than all the compromising abolitionist congressmen put together. Not only was he more useful than those who worked in the system, but I would say saner too.
That's a logic that only succeeds when you believe your side is correct. The same logic works to justify the Holocaust or the mass exterminations in the Soviet Union and China. If the cause is true, then the violence, regardless of scale, is justified. It necessarily has to reduce your target to abstractions to be removed for the greater good. That's the terrifying thing about ideology, especially apocalyptic ideology—the ease with which we can deny others' humanity. We should celebrate the end of slavery but not the means by which it occurred or the maniacs who revelled in murder.
I certainly don't expect to talk you round from an intellectual and principled choice on this, so I'm talking out loud to think through my own position at this point. In the historical case of John Brown, he didn't take to the sword and gun with glee, but with the same duty of a soldier fighting the nazis and he was right to do so, as events would prove. You will otherwise be left with Yeats' world where The Best Lack All Conviction, while the Worst Are Full Of Passionate Intensity. The position that we can't fight the slave holders lest we become as bad as them is one that continues a rotten status quo indefinitely.
I've been following this thread for the last few posts. It's fascinating to read the differing opinions even though I know little about the main subject you are discussing.

It's a strange thing how we all hold our opinions respectful of each other and from the perspective of men who are intellectual but have never been put in the position of those people being discussed.

I often wonder how some of those men felt that didn't want to fight or didn't believe whole heartedly in the cause. But we're forced to fight due to circumstance. Not just pertinent to this current discussion but to all fights righteous or otherwise.

Sorry for butting in guys.
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Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty

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