Currently watching.

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Dr. Medulla
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 12:34pm
I certainly don't expect to talk you round from an intellectual and principled choice on this, so I'm talking out loud to think through my own position at this point.
Don't worry—I'm not seeking to proselytize and I don't look down on your position. Yours has the advantage of historical reality to justify itself. But it is a vitally important question, I think, because if you do subscribe to the legitimacy of violence to resolve political conflict, where do you draw the line.
In the historical case of John Brown, he didn't take to the sword and gun with glee, but with the same duty of a soldier fighting the nazis and he was right to do so, as events would prove.
No, Brown was a lunatic. He was full of righteous fury and glee. He was the spiritual ancestor of every pro-life radical who murdered an abortion provider.
You will otherwise be left with Yeats' world where The Best Lack All Conviction, while the Worst Are Full Of Passionate Intensity. The position that we can't fight the slave holders lest we become as bad as them is one that continues a rotten status quo indefinitely.
I don't disagree with that one iota. I just believe that if we subscribe to violence—especially the terrorizing violence of Brown—ensures a legitimacy of violence. There are other ways to achieve change. I'm not naive enough to think that violence can be eradicated, but it's a depressing admission against our species to think that it's a necessary, even preferred way of promoting radical social change.
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by Flex »

I've encountered both characterizations of Brown - I'd be interested in any good recommendations in either direction on the man to get a better sense of him.
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Re: Currently watching.

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Marky Dread wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 1:08pm
It's a strange thing how we all hold our opinions respectful of each other and from the perspective of men who are intellectual but have never been put in the position of those people being discussed.

I often wonder how some of those men felt that didn't want to fight or didn't believe whole heartedly in the cause. But we're forced to fight due to circumstance. Not just pertinent to this current discussion but to all fights righteous or otherwise.

Sorry for butting in guys.
No apologies! My version of pacifism doesn't condemn those who do fight. We are all responsible to our consciences. I take exception to those who do it with glee, with a belief that their use of murder and maiming makes them a superior moral individual. There is nothing glorious about ending another person's life. But sometimes circumstances emerge and one has to use violence to defend oneself or others. I get that and have no issue there.
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Re: Currently watching.

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 1:15pm
Marky Dread wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 1:08pm
It's a strange thing how we all hold our opinions respectful of each other and from the perspective of men who are intellectual but have never been put in the position of those people being discussed.

I often wonder how some of those men felt that didn't want to fight or didn't believe whole heartedly in the cause. But we're forced to fight due to circumstance. Not just pertinent to this current discussion but to all fights righteous or otherwise.

Sorry for butting in guys.
No apologies! My version of pacifism doesn't condemn those who do fight. We are all responsible to our consciences. I take exception to those who do it with glee, with a belief that their use of murder and maiming makes them a superior moral individual. There is nothing glorious about ending another person's life. But sometimes circumstances emerge and one has to use violence to defend oneself or others. I get that and have no issue there.
My view as I've gotten older is very similar to yours. I still think we (mankind) have the capability of finding another way.

I am of course a hypocrite at times with my own anger not being able to always keep it in check when I need to think first but I'm improving and that's something.
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by revbob »

Cool to see others joining in. History it is said is written by the victors and John Brown while an important figure who helped spark the downfall of slavery in America is not a victor he was executed by the US government that as we all know continued to support racist policies in its laws and practices.
I find it lazy to dismiss (as some historians do) him as a mad man and a religious zealot and I really dont think it is fair to lump him in with the religious right of today as many of those same people have shown themselves to be racists and would have more likely not have been sympathetic to the abolitionist cause.

Personal experience coming so take it for what it is worth...
I also have yet to speak with a black person (US, Canada, Haiti, Jamaica) that knows at least some of the story of John Brown who doesn't hail him as a hero of some kind.

As for abortion. I think its safe to say that the degree of acceptance it has found in the world today is a fairly recent change.

Hope those Yankees can beat the non-Devil Rays in the next round they've been a tough opponent this year.

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Re: Currently watching.

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Marky Dread wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 1:29pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 1:15pm
Marky Dread wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 1:08pm
It's a strange thing how we all hold our opinions respectful of each other and from the perspective of men who are intellectual but have never been put in the position of those people being discussed.

I often wonder how some of those men felt that didn't want to fight or didn't believe whole heartedly in the cause. But we're forced to fight due to circumstance. Not just pertinent to this current discussion but to all fights righteous or otherwise.

Sorry for butting in guys.
No apologies! My version of pacifism doesn't condemn those who do fight. We are all responsible to our consciences. I take exception to those who do it with glee, with a belief that their use of murder and maiming makes them a superior moral individual. There is nothing glorious about ending another person's life. But sometimes circumstances emerge and one has to use violence to defend oneself or others. I get that and have no issue there.
My view as I've gotten older is very similar to yours. I still think we (mankind) have the capability of finding another way.

I am of course a hypocrite at times with my own anger not being able to always keep it in check when I need to think first but I'm improving and that's something.
Yeah, I'm always in a constant fight with my anger over injustice. But I realize that when I get some kind of satisfaction from violence against evil people, I know that it's therapeutic for me, not the fulfillment of an ideals.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

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Re: Currently watching.

Post by Silent Majority »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 1:11pm
Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 12:34pm
I certainly don't expect to talk you round from an intellectual and principled choice on this, so I'm talking out loud to think through my own position at this point.
Don't worry—I'm not seeking to proselytize and I don't look down on your position. Yours has the advantage of historical reality to justify itself. But it is a vitally important question, I think, because if you do subscribe to the legitimacy of violence to resolve political conflict, where do you draw the line.
I would draw the line after we achieve the good things and before we do the bad things. This reads glib, I know, but it is definitely not. With a humanist, self-critical approach, and one in consultation with the oppressed, it's truly not difficult to carve a path through a moral jungle.
No, Brown was a lunatic. He was full of righteous fury and glee. He was the spiritual ancestor of every pro-life radical who murdered an abortion provider.
It's been a long while since I've read Midnight Rising, the only account of Brown's life I've consumed, so my details are muddy, so I'm happy to cede my bleary, Brown-admiring memories to the opinion of one who has done more historiographical work than I ever will.
I just believe that if we subscribe to violence—especially the terrorizing violence of Brown—ensures a legitimacy of violence. There are other ways to achieve change. I'm not naive enough to think that violence can be eradicated, but it's a depressing admission against our species to think that it's a necessary, even preferred way of promoting radical social change.
It's the least perfect tool, but it's one with a proven track record. Sherman's March was awful, a horrific thing to do, but it carried a weight of conclusion to 300 years of terror against a people deprived of power.... but I know you know this and I understand your objections, so I'm happy to let this one sit here if you are.
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Re: Currently watching.

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Silent Majority wrote:
01 Oct 2020, 4:54pm
so I'm happy to let this one sit here if you are.
Yeah, it's all good. :cool:
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Re: Currently watching.

Post by revbob »

Enjoying the hell out of the new season of Archer.

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Re: Currently watching.

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Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

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Re: Currently watching.

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I think the Boss is coming around to Rick & Morty. She generated a genuine laugh at the episode where Jerry, living alone in a shitty apartment, has an encounter with a wolf who takes his welfare cheque. She laughed as the wind blows by, whispering, "Loooooooser."

edit: Atrocious grammar.
Last edited by Dr. Medulla on 30 Oct 2020, 1:16pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Currently watching.

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 12:06pm
I think the Boss is coming around to Rick & Morty. She generated a genuine laugh at the episode where Jerry, living alone in a shitty apartment, and has an encounter with a wolf he takes his welfare cheque. She laughed as the wind blows by, whispering, "Loooooooser."
My wife can't stand this show. I also got an extra ration of shit yesterday for never being serious and making jokes of everything. I probably need some time for self reflection.

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Re: Currently watching.

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revbob wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 12:56pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 12:06pm
I think the Boss is coming around to Rick & Morty. She generated a genuine laugh at the episode where Jerry, living alone in a shitty apartment, and has an encounter with a wolf he takes his welfare cheque. She laughed as the wind blows by, whispering, "Loooooooser."
My wife can't stand this show. I also got an extra ration of shit yesterday for never being serious and making jokes of everything. I probably need some time for self reflection.
I'm impressed at how many animated shows The Boss likes now—Venture Bros, Archer, Bob's Burgers, even Family Guy to a small degree. She's never been keen on the Simpsons, tho, apart from a few lines and scenes.
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Re: Currently watching.

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 1:18pm
revbob wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 12:56pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 12:06pm
I think the Boss is coming around to Rick & Morty. She generated a genuine laugh at the episode where Jerry, living alone in a shitty apartment, and has an encounter with a wolf he takes his welfare cheque. She laughed as the wind blows by, whispering, "Loooooooser."
My wife can't stand this show. I also got an extra ration of shit yesterday for never being serious and making jokes of everything. I probably need some time for self reflection.
I'm impressed at how many animated shows The Boss likes now—Venture Bros, Archer, Bob's Burgers, even Family Guy to a small degree. She's never been keen on the Simpsons, tho, apart from a few lines and scenes.
My wife will dismiss them and then watch and laugh.

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Re: Currently watching.

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revbob wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 1:21pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 1:18pm
revbob wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 12:56pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
30 Oct 2020, 12:06pm
I think the Boss is coming around to Rick & Morty. She generated a genuine laugh at the episode where Jerry, living alone in a shitty apartment, and has an encounter with a wolf he takes his welfare cheque. She laughed as the wind blows by, whispering, "Loooooooser."
My wife can't stand this show. I also got an extra ration of shit yesterday for never being serious and making jokes of everything. I probably need some time for self reflection.
I'm impressed at how many animated shows The Boss likes now—Venture Bros, Archer, Bob's Burgers, even Family Guy to a small degree. She's never been keen on the Simpsons, tho, apart from a few lines and scenes.
My wife will dismiss them and then watch and laugh.
Ha! Secret shame. At this point, mine might like Bob's Burgers more than me.
Back off, or I'll blow the roof off—with sound!

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