That Will Israel For Humbug

Politics and other such topical creams.
Dr. Medulla
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Re: That Will Israel For Humbug

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https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017 ... nline.html

Yeah, about that "never again" stuff, Likudniks …
"What is a juggalo? A juggalo ask what it is, well, fuck if I know. What is a juggalo? I don't know, but I'm down with the clown and I'm down for life, yo." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: That Will Israel For Humbug

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Sep 2017, 12:43pm
https://www.thestar.com/news/world/2017 ... nline.html

Yeah, about that "never again" stuff, Likudniks …
I wish that whole family would fall off the face of the earth. Except for their dog, because it's not his fault.
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Re: That Will Israel For Humbug

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https://www.jpost.com/HEALTH-SCIENCE/Is ... off-581121

FW: FW: FW: FW: New CIA pics emerge of Mossad Lander in dusty Tel Aviv TV studio!!!


Stay tuned to your shut-in Grandma's AOL account for the latest developments.

Dr. Medulla
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Re: That Will Israel For Humbug

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I don't wish to be associated with that other bent banana of a thread, plus this one has a great title, so I'll post this here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... of-history

I was quite taken with Neiman's book, Learning From the Germans—a friend of mine and a Holocaust scholar thinks her history is bad, but it's not my area so I can't really say—so I perk up when I see her name. But what is being argued about here, I think, rests on two distinct interpretations of the lesson of the Holocaust. One version is the danger of an all-powerful state turning its resources to persecute—to eliminate—a people. This is an interpretation that rests on the idea of a universal application. We can and should imagine ourselves as potential Jews (or Roma or Jehovah's Witnesses or any other group targeted for destruction by the Nazis) within or under our own state. The other version is that the lesson of the Holocaust is exclusively applicable to Jews, that it was the terrible logical endpoint of centuries of antisemitism, and so constant vigilance and especially action against perceived enemies of Jews is warranted. Do not hide, do not keep quiet—resist antisemites by all available means. That is, in essence, the state of Israel's position, particularly with events in Gaza. And it's that interpretation that leads Jewish critics of Israeli policy to potentially be labeled un-Jews or antisemites themselves.

I prefer the former version, in no small part because it does apply to me personally and I think it's a position that seeks to minimize state violence everywhere. Yet I would I don't reject the latter version because, well, I'm not Jewish and so I don't know that cultural trauma. It's not my place to deny it, even tho I think we can see that it can have horrible consequences.
"What is a juggalo? A juggalo ask what it is, well, fuck if I know. What is a juggalo? I don't know, but I'm down with the clown and I'm down for life, yo." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

JennyB
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Re: That Will Israel For Humbug

Post by JennyB »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Feb 2024, 11:25am
I don't wish to be associated with that other bent banana of a thread, plus this one has a great title, so I'll post this here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... of-history

I was quite taken with Neiman's book, Learning From the Germans—a friend of mine and a Holocaust scholar thinks her history is bad, but it's not my area so I can't really say—so I perk up when I see her name. But what is being argued about here, I think, rests on two distinct interpretations of the lesson of the Holocaust. One version is the danger of an all-powerful state turning its resources to persecute—to eliminate—a people. This is an interpretation that rests on the idea of a universal application. We can and should imagine ourselves as potential Jews (or Roma or Jehovah's Witnesses or any other group targeted for destruction by the Nazis) within or under our own state. The other version is that the lesson of the Holocaust is exclusively applicable to Jews, that it was the terrible logical endpoint of centuries of antisemitism, and so constant vigilance and especially action against perceived enemies of Jews is warranted. Do not hide, do not keep quiet—resist antisemites by all available means. That is, in essence, the state of Israel's position, particularly with events in Gaza. And it's that interpretation that leads Jewish critics of Israeli policy to potentially be labeled un-Jews or antisemites themselves.

I prefer the former version, in no small part because it does apply to me personally and I think it's a position that seeks to minimize state violence everywhere. Yet I would I don't reject the latter version because, well, I'm not Jewish and so I don't know that cultural trauma. It's not my place to deny it, even tho I think we can see that it can have horrible consequences.
This doesn't happen, for the most part. I criticize Israel's policy all the time. I spent last evening watching the Super Bowl with two Israeli families and we spent a majority of the time criticizing Netanyahu, his coalition and his policies. However, when fellow Jews join the "pick me, pick me!" contingent and call for Israel's destruction, side with Hamas, etc, that's when the self-hating accusations begin. And I agree with those. Norm Finkelstein is a self-hating Jew. Ilan Pappe and Gilad Atzmon are self-hating Jews. I would never go so far as to say they are no longer Jewish, but they are pawns in a very dangerous tokenization game.

I don't think the lessons of the Holocaust is exclusively applicable to Jews. I do, however, really resent the implication that Israel, and Jews as a whole, did not "learn our lesson." Especially when it seems that Israel is the only country tasked to learn a lesson these days.
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" *sigh* it's right when they throw the penis pump out the window." -Hoy

Dr. Medulla
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Re: That Will Israel For Humbug

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JennyB wrote:
12 Feb 2024, 11:59am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
11 Feb 2024, 11:25am
I don't wish to be associated with that other bent banana of a thread, plus this one has a great title, so I'll post this here: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... of-history

I was quite taken with Neiman's book, Learning From the Germans—a friend of mine and a Holocaust scholar thinks her history is bad, but it's not my area so I can't really say—so I perk up when I see her name. But what is being argued about here, I think, rests on two distinct interpretations of the lesson of the Holocaust. One version is the danger of an all-powerful state turning its resources to persecute—to eliminate—a people. This is an interpretation that rests on the idea of a universal application. We can and should imagine ourselves as potential Jews (or Roma or Jehovah's Witnesses or any other group targeted for destruction by the Nazis) within or under our own state. The other version is that the lesson of the Holocaust is exclusively applicable to Jews, that it was the terrible logical endpoint of centuries of antisemitism, and so constant vigilance and especially action against perceived enemies of Jews is warranted. Do not hide, do not keep quiet—resist antisemites by all available means. That is, in essence, the state of Israel's position, particularly with events in Gaza. And it's that interpretation that leads Jewish critics of Israeli policy to potentially be labeled un-Jews or antisemites themselves.

I prefer the former version, in no small part because it does apply to me personally and I think it's a position that seeks to minimize state violence everywhere. Yet I would I don't reject the latter version because, well, I'm not Jewish and so I don't know that cultural trauma. It's not my place to deny it, even tho I think we can see that it can have horrible consequences.
This doesn't happen, for the most part. I criticize Israel's policy all the time. I spent last evening watching the Super Bowl with two Israeli families and we spent a majority of the time criticizing Netanyahu, his coalition and his policies. However, when fellow Jews join the "pick me, pick me!" contingent and call for Israel's destruction, side with Hamas, etc, that's when the self-hating accusations begin. And I agree with those. Norm Finkelstein is a self-hating Jew. Ilan Pappe and Gilad Atzmon are self-hating Jews. I would never go so far as to say they are no longer Jewish, but they are pawns in a very dangerous tokenization game.
The friend of mine I alluded to above runs a Jewish Studies program at a small school up here. He told me that one of his colleagues treated him very coldly because he maintained a polite relationship with another professor who supported the Palestinian cause (whatever that might mean—there's a whole range of possibilities there). He was taken aback and felt like his Jewishness had been questioned. I think running that program at this moment has been very stressful for him. If we were just teaching, he could better pick and choose who to interact with, but doing his job as an administrator has him feeling conflicted. Which is especially terrible because he wears his cultural identity quite openly (he's very much in the Woody Allen mode, minus all that gross Woody Allen stuff). I absolutely hate that he's got to chug thru all that.
I don't think the lessons of the Holocaust is exclusively applicable to Jews. I do, however, really resent the implication that Israel, and Jews as a whole, did not "learn our lesson." Especially when it seems that Israel is the only country tasked to learn a lesson these days.
And that's just it—the idea that Jews didn't learn their lesson rests on the idea that there is one certain correct lesson to be gained, that universalist interpretation. "Never again" is something that can be interpreted different ways and people are being unjustly smug in condemning Jews for not accepting the one they prefer. Any people who have gone thru a massive trauma like that, it ain't my place to assert what the correct lesson of their collective experience is.
"What is a juggalo? A juggalo ask what it is, well, fuck if I know. What is a juggalo? I don't know, but I'm down with the clown and I'm down for life, yo." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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