The Future of the Democratic Party

[Low Down Low]

Oh yes, that last bit in particular. It also seems an echo of what i see as the right's great success in dominating the narrative to such an extent that when the left transgresses, it's obviously because the left is inherently bad and untrustworthy - cf. antisemitism for example - but when it's the right, it naturally segues into, well they're all at it, all just as bad etc. "If people believe they're all lying, the tories win," was one of my standout ledes from the last election.

The part about "they all lie, so vote Tory" seems an indirect way of saying (admitting?) that the left is morally superior. That is, the right is morally bankrupt and everyone knows it, but if the left falls to its level, then the left loses its identity and value, whereas the right is true to its own. Maybe I'm reading that wrong, but it seems like even the right argues (for its own purposes, of course) that it expects more of the left than it does of itself. I get that leftists believe themselves morally superior, but it's curious than indirect admission from the right.

I was a bit amused - because sometimes you just have to laugh - at trump addressing the stock market price collapse yesterday and blithely blaming the democrats. It reminded me of the uk health minister responding to reports of record waiting lists a few months ago and saying this is why we couldn't elect a labour government.

People get hooked in by this stuff, sadly.

Reality may be bad, but if you think hard enough, surely your imaginary Labour government would be even worse! I maybe be unemployed, but under a Labour government, I'd be unemployed and there'd be velociraptors on the streets!

I think its correct though, or it seems to me thats how it is. The left - and I'm not suggesting they're angels by any stretch - are judged to a different standard, whether its of a moral superior nature or not. I mentioned the example of antisemitism which is one illustration - listening to labour leadership debate last night and it remains a huge issue. Which is fine and correct, nobodys going to award them brownie points for his they've handled it, and whataboutery isnt a great enterprise, but i still think its fair to point out that only one party in the recent election openly paraded antisemitic candidates and it certainly wasnt the labour party. So i ask why that doesnt get hardly any traction at all.

And yes, i think that once you successfully portray your opponents as dangerous radical extremists, you can sit on your terrible record and do much as you like. Its a neat strategic trick i think, the political equivalent of the old expression once you get the reputation as an early riser, you can stay in bed all day.

[Dr. Medulla]

I think its correct though, or it seems to me thats how it is. The left - and I'm not suggesting they're angels by any stretch - are judged to a different standard, whether its of a moral superior nature or not. I mentioned the example of antisemitism which is one illustration - listening to labour leadership debate last night and it remains a huge issue. Which is fine and correct, nobodys going to award them brownie points for his they've handled it, and whataboutery isnt a great enterprise, but i still think its fair to point out that only one party in the recent election openly paraded antisemitic candidates and it certainly wasnt the labour party. So i ask why that doesnt get hardly any traction at all.

Assuming Sanders gets the nomination, our heads are going to spin like Regan in The Exorcist in terms of how anti-semitism will play out on the campaign. Trump has played footsy with neo-Nazis for a long time, but also courted right-wing Jews in relation to Israel, giving him a weird partial cover. And Sanders has been accused of harboring anti-semites in his camp and of being a "disloyal Jew" for his criticism of Israel's right-wing government. But you know damn well that none of those critics will say a peep, except perhaps to deny it's happening or that he deserves it, when anti-semitic tropes get trotted out against Sanders. It's hard not to see that right-wing Jews, while certainly not fans of anti-semitism, are willing to tolerate it if the target is liberals and the left. So this summer and fall, we're going to see a really ugly indirect alliance between neo-Nazis and right-wing Jews in the US.

And yes, i think that once you successfully portray your opponents as dangerous radical extremists, you can sit on your terrible record and do much as you like. Its a neat strategic trick i think, the political equivalent of the old expression once you get the reputation as an early riser, you can stay in bed all day.

Such as the blanket assumption that conservatives are better skilled with the economy because they have business smarts, or that liberals and leftists waste the public's money like a poet on payday. Never mind that the data doesn't back any of that up, it's one of those canards that so many have absorbed because it feels like it should be true.

[Low Down Low]

I think its correct though, or it seems to me thats how it is. The left - and I'm not suggesting they're angels by any stretch - are judged to a different standard, whether its of a moral superior nature or not. I mentioned the example of antisemitism which is one illustration - listening to labour leadership debate last night and it remains a huge issue. Which is fine and correct, nobodys going to award them brownie points for his they've handled it, and whataboutery isnt a great enterprise, but i still think its fair to point out that only one party in the recent election openly paraded antisemitic candidates and it certainly wasnt the labour party. So i ask why that doesnt get hardly any traction at all.

Assuming Sanders gets the nomination, our heads are going to spin like Regan in The Exorcist in terms of how anti-semitism will play out on the campaign. Trump has played footsy with neo-Nazis for a long time, but also courted right-wing Jews in relation to Israel, giving him a weird partial cover. And Sanders has been accused of harboring anti-semites in his camp and of being a "disloyal Jew" for his criticism of Israel's right-wing government. But you know damn well that none of those critics will say a peep, except perhaps to deny it's happening or that he deserves it, when anti-semitic tropes get trotted out against Sanders. It's hard not to see that right-wing Jews, while certainly not fans of anti-semitism, are willing to tolerate it if the target is liberals and the left. So this summer and fall, we're going to see a really ugly indirect alliance between neo-Nazis and right-wing Jews in the US.

Jesus, that sounds grim. I mean I'd have a hell of a lot more faith in bernie sanders handling the issue than jeremy corbyn, and not simply because of his faith, but that is a such a combustible mix, i cant say how that would play out.

How would sanders play that, i wonder? Would he be willing to go into the trenches and fight trump and his minions mano a mano, or does he take the Obama we stay high mantra? Some people thought corbyn was far too passive in the uk, never really landed any telling blows whatsoever. But that fight wasnt in him and couldnt be manufactured. I expect or hope sanders will be different.

Damn, can never get thst editing thing right!

[Low Down Low]

I think its correct though, or it seems to me thats how it is. The left - and I'm not suggesting they're angels by any stretch - are judged to a different standard, whether its of a moral superior nature or not. I mentioned the example of antisemitism which is one illustration - listening to labour leadership debate last night and it remains a huge issue. Which is fine and correct, nobodys going to award them brownie points for his they've handled it, and whataboutery isnt a great enterprise, but i still think its fair to point out that only one party in the recent election openly paraded antisemitic candidates and it certainly wasnt the labour party. So i ask why that doesnt get hardly any traction at all.

Assuming Sanders gets the nomination, our heads are going to spin like Regan in The Exorcist in terms of how anti-semitism will play out on the campaign. Trump has played footsy with neo-Nazis for a long time, but also courted right-wing Jews in relation to Israel, giving him a weird partial cover. And Sanders has been accused of harboring anti-semites in his camp and of being a "disloyal Jew" for his criticism of Israel's right-wing government. But you know damn well that none of those critics will say a peep, except perhaps to deny it's happening or that he deserves it, when anti-semitic tropes get trotted out against Sanders. It's hard not to see that right-wing Jews, while certainly not fans of anti-semitism, are willing to tolerate it if the target is liberals and the left. So this summer and fall, we're going to see a really ugly indirect alliance between neo-Nazis and right-wing Jews in the US.

And yes, i think that once you successfully portray your opponents as dangerous radical extremists, you can sit on your terrible record and do much as you like. Its a neat strategic trick i think, the political equivalent of the old expression once you get the reputation as an early riser, you can stay in bed all day.

Such as the blanket assumption that conservatives are better skilled with the economy because they have business smarts, or that liberals and leftists waste the public's money like a poet on payday. Never mind that the data doesn't back any of that up, it's one of those canards that so many have absorbed because it feels like it should be true.

Exactly!

[Dr. Medulla]

How would sanders play that, i wonder? Would he be willing to go into the trenches and fight trump and his minions mano a mano, or does he take the Obama we stay high mantra? Some people thought corbyn was far too passive in the uk, never really landed any telling blows whatsoever. But that fight wasnt in him and couldnt be manufactured. I expect or hope sanders will be different.

I don't know how he'll handle it. Bluntly, I would imagine, as is his usual style, but I don't know how deep into the muck he'd go. He seems pretty focused on his core messaging, but events always have a way of throwing campaigns off their stride.

[JennyB]

I think its correct though, or it seems to me thats how it is. The left - and I'm not suggesting they're angels by any stretch - are judged to a different standard, whether its of a moral superior nature or not. I mentioned the example of antisemitism which is one illustration - listening to labour leadership debate last night and it remains a huge issue. Which is fine and correct, nobodys going to award them brownie points for his they've handled it, and whataboutery isnt a great enterprise, but i still think its fair to point out that only one party in the recent election openly paraded antisemitic candidates and it certainly wasnt the labour party. So i ask why that doesnt get hardly any traction at all.

Assuming Sanders gets the nomination, our heads are going to spin like Regan in The Exorcist in terms of how anti-semitism will play out on the campaign. Trump has played footsy with neo-Nazis for a long time, but also courted right-wing Jews in relation to Israel, giving him a weird partial cover. And Sanders has been accused of harboring anti-semites in his camp and of being a "disloyal Jew" for his criticism of Israel's right-wing government. But you know damn well that none of those critics will say a peep, except perhaps to deny it's happening or that he deserves it, when anti-semitic tropes get trotted out against Sanders. It's hard not to see that right-wing Jews, while certainly not fans of anti-semitism, are willing to tolerate it if the target is liberals and the left. So this summer and fall, we're going to see a really ugly indirect alliance between neo-Nazis and right-wing Jews in the US.

And yes, i think that once you successfully portray your opponents as dangerous radical extremists, you can sit on your terrible record and do much as you like. Its a neat strategic trick i think, the political equivalent of the old expression once you get the reputation as an early riser, you can stay in bed all day.

Such as the blanket assumption that conservatives are better skilled with the economy because they have business smarts, or that liberals and leftists waste the public's money like a poet on payday. Never mind that the data doesn't back any of that up, it's one of those canards that so many have absorbed because it feels like it should be true.

Speaking as a Jew, we are screwed either way. The right wing antisemites are going to trot out their usual tropes, and the left wing antisemites (of which there are many in the Bernie camp) will claim that, since they support him, they couldn't possibly be antisemitic. People are also going after him on both sides because of Israel - the right wingers (and remember, right wing hawks on Israel in the Jewish community are few and far between - the most hawkish on Israel are CUFI evangelicals) because he's not sufficiently pro-Israel and the left wingers because he believes in Israel's right to exist.

I've mentioned on numerous occasions that I don't want a Jewish president. I agree with Bernie on many issues, especially Medicare for all, but the idea of a Jewish president, especially one so polarizing, scares the shit out of me. I certainly don't want Bloomberg either. I will vote blue regardless, mainly because of SCOTUS and I certainly don't support the orange nazi, but I am scared shitless.

[Dr. Medulla]

Speaking as a Jew, we are screwed either way. The right wing antisemites are going to trot out their usual tropes, and the left wing antisemites (of which there are many in the Bernie camp) will claim that, since they support him, they couldn't possibly be antisemitic. People are also going after him on both sides because of Israel - the right wingers (and remember, right wing hawks on Israel in the Jewish community are few and far between - the most hawkish on Israel are CUFI evangelicals) because he's not sufficiently pro-Israel and the left wingers because he believes in Israel's right to exist.

I've mentioned on numerous occasions that I don't want a Jewish president. I agree with Bernie on many issues, especially Medicare for all, but the idea of a Jewish president, especially one so polarizing, scares the shit out of me. I certainly don't want Bloomberg either. I will vote blue regardless, mainly because of SCOTUS and I certainly don't support the orange nazi, but I am scared shitless.

I remember a friend of mine whose wife taught at a community college back in '08 told me that many of her African American students said they weren't going to vote for Obama because they didn't want to feel responsible when he was assassinated, but also the amount of anti-black racism it was going to whip up. A Sanders candidacy/presidency offers the same situation—an opportunity for the bigots to feel especially justified to exercise their poisonous views. It's one of those moments when it becomes especially clear the privilege of being "normal" (i.e., culturally Christian, visibly white, male)—you don't worry about one of your type rising to the top resulting in danger and abuse for yourself and your peers.

[JennyB]

Speaking as a Jew, we are screwed either way. The right wing antisemites are going to trot out their usual tropes, and the left wing antisemites (of which there are many in the Bernie camp) will claim that, since they support him, they couldn't possibly be antisemitic. People are also going after him on both sides because of Israel - the right wingers (and remember, right wing hawks on Israel in the Jewish community are few and far between - the most hawkish on Israel are CUFI evangelicals) because he's not sufficiently pro-Israel and the left wingers because he believes in Israel's right to exist.

I've mentioned on numerous occasions that I don't want a Jewish president. I agree with Bernie on many issues, especially Medicare for all, but the idea of a Jewish president, especially one so polarizing, scares the shit out of me. I certainly don't want Bloomberg either. I will vote blue regardless, mainly because of SCOTUS and I certainly don't support the orange nazi, but I am scared shitless.

I remember a friend of mine whose wife taught at a community college back in '08 told me that many of her African American students said they weren't going to vote for Obama because they didn't want to feel responsible when he was assassinated, but also the amount of anti-black racism it was going to whip up. A Sanders candidacy/presidency offers the same situation—an opportunity for the bigots to feel especially justified to exercise their poisonous views. It's one of those moments when it becomes especially clear the privilege of being "normal" (i.e., culturally Christian, visibly white, male)—you don't worry about one of your type rising to the top resulting in danger and abuse for yourself and your peers.

Yep.

[Low Down Low]

I think its correct though, or it seems to me thats how it is. The left - and I'm not suggesting they're angels by any stretch - are judged to a different standard, whether its of a moral superior nature or not. I mentioned the example of antisemitism which is one illustration - listening to labour leadership debate last night and it remains a huge issue. Which is fine and correct, nobodys going to award them brownie points for his they've handled it, and whataboutery isnt a great enterprise, but i still think its fair to point out that only one party in the recent election openly paraded antisemitic candidates and it certainly wasnt the labour party. So i ask why that doesnt get hardly any traction at all.

Assuming Sanders gets the nomination, our heads are going to spin like Regan in The Exorcist in terms of how anti-semitism will play out on the campaign. Trump has played footsy with neo-Nazis for a long time, but also courted right-wing Jews in relation to Israel, giving him a weird partial cover. And Sanders has been accused of harboring anti-semites in his camp and of being a "disloyal Jew" for his criticism of Israel's right-wing government. But you know damn well that none of those critics will say a peep, except perhaps to deny it's happening or that he deserves it, when anti-semitic tropes get trotted out against Sanders. It's hard not to see that right-wing Jews, while certainly not fans of anti-semitism, are willing to tolerate it if the target is liberals and the left. So this summer and fall, we're going to see a really ugly indirect alliance between neo-Nazis and right-wing Jews in the US.

And yes, i think that once you successfully portray your opponents as dangerous radical extremists, you can sit on your terrible record and do much as you like. Its a neat strategic trick i think, the political equivalent of the old expression once you get the reputation as an early riser, you can stay in bed all day.

Such as the blanket assumption that conservatives are better skilled with the economy because they have business smarts, or that liberals and leftists waste the public's money like a poet on payday. Never mind that the data doesn't back any of that up, it's one of those canards that so many have absorbed because it feels like it should be true.

Speaking as a Jew, we are screwed either way. The right wing antisemites are going to trot out their usual tropes, and the left wing antisemites (of which there are many in the Bernie camp) will claim that, since they support him, they couldn't possibly be antisemitic. People are also going after him on both sides because of Israel - the right wingers (and remember, right wing hawks on Israel in the Jewish community are few and far between - the most hawkish on Israel are CUFI evangelicals) because he's not sufficiently pro-Israel and the left wingers because he believes in Israel's right to exist.

I've mentioned on numerous occasions that I don't want a Jewish president. I agree with Bernie on many issues, especially Medicare for all, but the idea of a Jewish president, especially one so polarizing, scares the shit out of me. I certainly don't want Bloomberg either. I will vote blue regardless, mainly because of SCOTUS and I certainly don't support the orange nazi, but I am scared shitless.

It must suck to be in that situation, i can only sympathise. What can sanders do, doesnt sound like he has many great choices there? Could he call out antisemites on his own side if the situation arose and try to distance himself from them? Or is it too politically inexpedient for him to contemplate? Judging by his castro comment - which on the surface seemed trivial to me, yet still offered ammunition to his naysayers - i wonder if there are question marks as to his ability to steer his way through this thicket.

[FarawayTowns]

British take on some of the lessons Bernie can learn from Corbyn's defeat. According to this article opponents are starting to use anti-semitism against Bernie now.

https://www.newstatesman.com/world/nort ... y-corbyn-s

I read Masons book and read a lot of his columns over the years and still a bit confused as to whether he was a full corbyn backer or not. This bit did resonate with me, though:

"As we found here in 2019, three decades of neoliberal reality have created in the minds of many voters a fear of anything radically different, no matter how unequal and unjust the present system is."

Mason appears to support whoever on the left he thinks has the best chance at the time of winning power. Over the last 5 years he has supported Syriza, Podemos, Corbyn and Bernie. As soon as they start to look like they are going to lose he drops them. He is supporting Starmer in the Labour leadership election and has been trying to convince everyone that Starmer, rightly or wrongly is a socialist and not a centrist. Then earlier this week he said 'The left needs to organise to defend and pursue its own agenda and work constructively with @Keir_Starmer if he wins...' Which needless to say he got slaughtered for!

Saying all that I do find him worth reading as he does come out with some good stuff such as you identified above.

[Dr. Medulla]

https://politics.theonion.com/tell-me-a ... 1841920931

[Kory]

https://politics.theonion.com/tell-me-a ... 1841920931

So true.

[revbob]

Has this been posted before?

https://politics.theonion.com/the-onion ... 9/slides/3

[Low Down Low]

The end for Warren is in site, surely? Is she still viable veep candidate? I hate seeing her camp at loggerheads with sanders'.

[Dr. Medulla]

The end for Warren is in site, surely? Is she still viable veep candidate? I hate seeing her camp at loggerheads with sanders'.

Flex (I think) and I are high on a Sanders/Warren ticket. If Sanders were to die in office (or even during the campaign), you'd have a replacement who's more inclined to continue his policies. And given that he's running ardently opposed to the status quo, the idea of a "balanced" ticket with some corporate liberal would look insincere. It could yet happen, but Sanders picking someone like, I dunno, Klobuchar would seen more than a bit icky.