The Future of the Democratic Party

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matedog
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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Flex wrote:
15 Aug 2019, 1:38pm
also: lol at the idea that the left wants any statue of billy clinton around anymore. tear that shit down and put up a statue of, like, a milkshake.
How long after 88 did the right develop their obsession with Reagan? Seems immediate, maybe when Clinton got elected. Left never really did that with Clinton. I’m assuming they might with Obama though.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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matedog wrote:
15 Aug 2019, 2:32pm
Flex wrote:
15 Aug 2019, 1:38pm
also: lol at the idea that the left wants any statue of billy clinton around anymore. tear that shit down and put up a statue of, like, a milkshake.
How long after 88 did the right develop their obsession with Reagan? Seems immediate, maybe when Clinton got elected. Left never really did that with Clinton. I’m assuming they might with Obama though.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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matedog wrote:
15 Aug 2019, 2:32pm
Flex wrote:
15 Aug 2019, 1:38pm
also: lol at the idea that the left wants any statue of billy clinton around anymore. tear that shit down and put up a statue of, like, a milkshake.
How long after 88 did the right develop their obsession with Reagan? Seems immediate, maybe when Clinton got elected. Left never really did that with Clinton. I’m assuming they might with Obama though.
It was during Clinton. When Reagan left office, he wasn't especially popular (scandals, dragging economy), but after Clinton was re-elected in '96, something called the Ronald Reagan Legacy Project began, aiming to reframe Reagan's terms as the greatest the country had ever seen (and that Clinton was pissing on, even tho all evidence showed Clinton confirming Reagan's initiatives). Being Republican meant belonging to a Reagan personality cult that never existed when he was president.

The only way Obama's reputation remains in elite circles is if Republicans continue to win. Future historians will doubtless treat Obama as the guy who fought for a dying neoliberal status quo and fuelled resentment on both sides. He was a high-level caretaker president, the significance of his election aside.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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Limey bookies leaning towards Warren: https://www.newsweek.com/elizabeth-warr ... ry-1454706
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
16 Aug 2019, 10:31am
Limey bookies leaning towards Warren: https://www.newsweek.com/elizabeth-warr ... ry-1454706
Yeah, the movement has been interesting. Warren has recently gotten a couple big, favorable polls that should help give her some momentum although Biden is still pretty comfortably in the lead in most places. I'm still a little skeptical that folks are gonna abandon him en masse. But, Warren has the best favorables of any Dem candidate so she may stand to pick up voters as folks drop out (especially if she's benefiting from a narrative as the candidate on the upswing - once your pet candidate is out, you wanna hitch your wagon to a winner).

One thing I've been puzzling through, I agree that Warren isn't as left as Bernie (although it's a bit muddier than Bernie fans make it out - if the litmus test for socialism is "worker ownership of the means of production" - which it should be - Warren has been clearer about calling for that than Bernie, despite her calling herself a capitalist) and that Bernie is running more or less on a theory of mass movement activism, where OurRevolution continues on with him as president and represents a point of outside pressure to try to force Congress to actually go along with some social democratic reforms. All stuff I agree with, certainly, and more persuasive than any of the other candidate's plans for change (although I think Warren has the better case for understanding what can get done under the presidency and directing departments within federal government WITHOUT some massive outside force forcing Congress' hands) - but it's been interesting seeing the messaging that's been emerging out of the DSA/dirtbag left which is basically tamping down any expectations of getting anything done under a Bernie presidency. On a recent episode of Chapo, they were asserting that people can't expect a single major piece of legislation to get passed under a Bernie presidency because Ds and Rs will be totally hostile to him. Which may be true (although I think Trump shows that the head of the party can expect his party to move towards him at least somewhat), but in that case why wouldn't you want to throw your support behind a similar candidate who a) has the ability to garner more universal support within the party, b) is still basically an ally on all your major issues even if her aesthetic signaling is different, and c) would be massively beholden to a left wing movement that put her over the top vs the leading establishment candidates? If Bernie is so guaranteed to be alienating and divisive within the party wouldn't the better bet for change be to pick a candidate who has the ability to actually carry the water of the left flank of the Dem party and actually get the party to go along with it?

The problem is if this left wing movement turns out to be less about a vision of socialism in America and is actually more of just a "bernie fanclub" that doesn't have the ability to move beyond him (which it will have to do one way or the other soon because he's very old and is probably going to die in the nearish future!). It's been something I've been thinking about a lot as I see this primary unfolding. I suspect there's some folks within the movement who have the same fears, which is why they're not willing to really countenance a vision of what the post-bernie socialist left would move forward.

I dunno. It's interesting. I think there's a real opportunity for the DSA left and the Our Revolution type folks to transform their work into a long term mass movement, with or without Bernie snagging the nomination, and it'll be interesting to see if they can seize the moment, so to speak.
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matedog
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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I don't know a single person who is into Biden. Zero. I think the more exposure Warren/Bernie get, Biden will continue to fall.

I remembered my mom saying last year "God, I hope Biden runs." I chalked it up to typical Boomer shit, but asked her about it recently. She likes Warren and said about her previous comments, "I didn't know there was so much talent." Which was reassuring.
Look, you have to establish context for these things. And I maintain that unless you appreciate the Fall of Constantinople, the Great Fire of London, and Mickey Mantle's fatalist alcoholism, live Freddy makes no sense. If you want to half-ass it, fine, go call Simon Schama to do the appendix.

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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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A narrative is starting to congeal around Biden not of inevitability or Obama restoration but as Creepy Uncle Gaffe. I may be biased here, but I don't think he has the ability to reverse that—he is what he is. He's going to need all the others to fuck up. Narratives are so damned important for establishing the frames and expectations, and the trend is a frame that works against Biden.

Further to narratives, I think Warren is a better messenger than Bernie because his crotchety persona is more conducive to the idea that he's a bomb-thrower, whereas Warren's policy wonk persona is more suggestive of someone who wants to work within the system. Not saying these things are proper reflections of reality, but how it gets framed. So Warren seems more reasonable, more likely to build consensus. On the other hand, there's a cult of personality around Bernie that isn't as obvious around Warren, and the aura of devotion has its value.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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https://www.salon.com/2019/08/19/barack ... rget-that/

Funny, a person can agree that Obama has been the best president the US has had in the last fifty years while also being deeply dissatisfied with his (in)actions and the status quo he sought to maintain.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
19 Aug 2019, 12:52pm
https://www.salon.com/2019/08/19/barack ... rget-that/

Funny, a person can agree that Obama has been the best president the US has had in the last fifty years while also being deeply dissatisfied with his (in)actions and the status quo he sought to maintain.
yeah, obama stepping over a very, very low bar can be both true and no defense against the substance of criticisms against his administration.

Likely primary voting dems overwhelmingly still love Obama tho, so purely tactically it's an interesting question of how much to criticize his administration. I think selling your platform as a point of growth from Obamaism, rather than a break, is probably the surer path to the nomination. That adoration for Obama is behind 99% of Sleepy Joe's current support, after all.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Dr. Medulla
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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https://www.huffpost.com/entry/seth-mou ... cbd48c44cd

Anyone really hoping for the word Moultonomics to be introduced into the American political vocabulary, the time is not yet right.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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https://www.huffpost.com/entry/seth-mou ... cbd48c44cd

Anyone really hoping for the word Moultonomics to be introduced into the American political vocabulary, the time is not yet right.
Delaneynomics might not be far behind, I suspect.

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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4 ... ratic-lead

Biden's steady collapse isn't the interesting part of the survey. It's that Sanders and Warren, the two candidates unambiguously on the left side of the options, are representing 40% of the vote.

edit: Meanwhile, Joe forgets Nixon's "I am not a crook" lesson: https://thehill.com/homenews/campaign/4 ... going-nuts

Lord, if Biden gets the nomination, the 2020 election would be waged between two guys with dementia.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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https://theslot.jezebel.com/and-here-we ... 1837898637

If there were still any doubt, Biden's pursuing the Trump strategy of flat-out lying. No finessing or wiggling, just straight lying.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Flex
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Sep 2019, 2:13pm
https://theslot.jezebel.com/and-here-we ... 1837898637

If there were still any doubt, Biden's pursuing the Trump strategy of flat-out lying. No finessing or wiggling, just straight lying.
i watched most of the climate town halls (which was actually surprisingly good and substantive) and Joe was easily the most awful person of the whole event. To the point where I felt deeply uncomfortable watching him. I think he's genuinely getting very confused, it's sort of hard to see.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

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