The Future of the Democratic Party

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BostonBeaneater
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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JennyB wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 4:52pm

And as much as the far left will not like hearing this, there is a huge antisemitism problem (this doesn't dismiss antisemitism on the right, but I am not on the right). I see it every day on Twitter.
I completely agree. I'd add that the antisemitism is not a lonely sin. It stands with POC racism, classism, and xenophobia as issues I think deserve a bright spotlight and reckoning.

I've also been thinking lately about the general rise and celebration of Assholism in this country. If anything good comes from this plague I hope people recognize how much we are really in this together. We're at a real, "Have you no decency, sir?" sort of moment.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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BostonBeaneater wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:03pm
I've also been thinking lately about the general rise and celebration of Assholism in this country.
you giving up on the Bostonian pastime?
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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eumaas wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:01pm
Neil, re: the prospect of a leftier government in Israel, I am not really optimistic. Israel seems to follow the overall global trend towards the far right. From reading Israeli media in English, which admittedly makes my access limited, there seems to be a real siege culture over there right now. I would love to see a peaceful path forward for the Israelis and Palestinians under leftist governance but that seems like a pipe dream.
Sorry, I didn't mean to suggest that I thought that was a likely scenario in the foreseeable future. More just musing about how much spectrum politics plays in anti-Semitic rhetoric or tolerance. It stems from my skepticism that evangelical philo-Semitism (is that the right term?) is anything but driven by politics of convenience.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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BostonBeaneater wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:03pm
I've also been thinking lately about the general rise and celebration of Assholism in this country. If anything good comes from this plague I hope people recognize how much we are really in this together. We're at a real, "Have you no decency, sir?" sort of moment.
Funny, I somewhat had that thought over Christma when a channel up here ran every episode of House, and my thought was that his misanthropy hadn't aged well at all, even as irony. Even tho the asshole pose is practically synonymous with the Gen X character (or stereotype), I'd be more than happy if we could move to more sincerity and genuine appreciation. One thing about irony and assholery, it's a perspective without a foundation; you just keep reacting to what comes your way.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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eumaas wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:06pm
BostonBeaneater wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:03pm
I've also been thinking lately about the general rise and celebration of Assholism in this country.
you giving up on the Bostonian pastime?
There's been a hollywoodization of how people think Boston people speak and act. It's a pretty inaccurate stereotype and no one gets the accent right. Boston is pretty on par with the rest of the country concerning people doing all things good, bad, and ugly.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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BostonBeaneater wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:24pm
eumaas wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:06pm
BostonBeaneater wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:03pm
I've also been thinking lately about the general rise and celebration of Assholism in this country.
you giving up on the Bostonian pastime?
There's been a hollywoodization of how people think Boston people speak and act. It's a pretty inaccurate stereotype and no one gets the accent right. Boston is pretty on par with the rest of the country concerning people doing all things good, bad, and ugly.
Not sure it's Hollywood as everybody I knew when I lived in Maine used the word "Masshole."
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I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:11pm
BostonBeaneater wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:03pm
I've also been thinking lately about the general rise and celebration of Assholism in this country. If anything good comes from this plague I hope people recognize how much we are really in this together. We're at a real, "Have you no decency, sir?" sort of moment.
Funny, I somewhat had that thought over Christma when a channel up here ran every episode of House, and my thought was that his misanthropy hadn't aged well at all, even as irony. Even tho the asshole pose is practically synonymous with the Gen X character (or stereotype), I'd be more than happy if we could move to more sincerity and genuine appreciation. One thing about irony and assholery, it's a perspective without a foundation; you just keep reacting to what comes your way.
I think there is an historically high percentage of people who are very proud to be douchebags.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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BostonBeaneater wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:27pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:11pm
BostonBeaneater wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:03pm
I've also been thinking lately about the general rise and celebration of Assholism in this country. If anything good comes from this plague I hope people recognize how much we are really in this together. We're at a real, "Have you no decency, sir?" sort of moment.
Funny, I somewhat had that thought over Christma when a channel up here ran every episode of House, and my thought was that his misanthropy hadn't aged well at all, even as irony. Even tho the asshole pose is practically synonymous with the Gen X character (or stereotype), I'd be more than happy if we could move to more sincerity and genuine appreciation. One thing about irony and assholery, it's a perspective without a foundation; you just keep reacting to what comes your way.
I think there is an historically high percentage of people who are very proud to be douchebags.
Those who like to self-describe as "tellin' like it is."
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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eumaas wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:01pm
JennyB wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 5:42pm
eumaas wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 5:39pm
JennyB wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 5:27pm
eumaas wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 5:08pm

You've said this before with respect to Bernie's campaign. Could you provide some examples of what you mean?
John Cusack's posts (that he doubled down on and issued a tepid "apology" for). If you recall, he tweeted an image with a quote from white nationalist and neo-Nazi Kevin Alfred Strom. The tweet suggested Jews were in control and were not allowed to be criticized. This is one example. The Dyke March. Purity tests of whether one is a good Jew (renouncing Israel) or bad Jew (those of us who believe in its right to exist) - I have witnessed this personally in my work. There are other examples that can be easily googled. Then, like in the UK, we are told by non-Jews that this isn't antisemitism. We are being gaslit because of course, I can't be antisemitic, I support the Jewish guy (which is no different from antisemitic Trump supporters who say he can't be an antisemite because Ivanka is Jewish). The tokenizing of the tiny percentage of anti-Israel Jews who use their platform to bash the rest of us. I criticize the Israeli government constantly, but I still don't pass the purity test. And I didn't even mean to get into a whole Israel thing.

I think your post also illustrates this (I am not calling you an antisemite) - you seem not to take me for my word. I feel like sometimes that we are the only group who isn't allowed to decide when people are working against them. I really wanted someone like Bernie (though not necessarily him - we don't need another old white man). I don't have any agenda to discredit the left. I want to *be* the left. I just don't feel welcome in these spaces.

Again, I am in no way trying to minimize the antisemitism on the right. I know it is much worse. But we expect that from the right. They have always been antisemitic. This is all new for me.
Wasn't about not taking you at your word, just wanted some examples because I hadn't seen anything personally.

I don't follow John Cusack on social media and I was unaware of that post. I also had no idea he was involved in the Bernie campaign. See, that's why an example is useful. Now I know Cusack is anti-semitic.

I'm sorry that asking for clarification and examples crosses some kind of line. :huh:
Not your fault - My hackles have been so raised lately that I see everything as an attack, and I didn't mean it that way. Also, it's hard to convey over writing. You're all good. :mrgreen:
Yeah, I was genuinely asking.

I mostly see Israel popping up in postcolonial/decolonization discourse on the left. I have seen people on the left step over the line in criticism of Israel before (this more like ten years ago tho), like suggesting total decolonization, which like any policy focused on big population transfers seems pretty bad to me. There are many generations of Israelis who have grown up there--just as completely decolonizing the US would be pretty impractical and horrendous, though I think the US could stand to give back a lot of land to Native Americans. The tininess of Israel doesn't compare well to decolonization proposals for the US and Canada.

There's also this anti-semitic trope that Zionist Jews control the US and are the reason for American policy towards Israel, which gets it rather reversed in my opinion--Israel is dependent on the US to some degree and ends up having to accommodate American policy, not the other way around.

For Israel the two-state solution seems dead in the water given the settlements. I would guess scaling back the ethnonationalism put in place by Likud and the ultraright would be the start to an equitable path forward.

I do agree with defenders of Israel who point out that the surrounding Arab states have done little for Palestinians, although I don't think that absolves Israel of human rights abuses either. But it's pretty awful when rich Salafist states complain about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians while doing little to help them materially.

Neil, re: the prospect of a leftier government in Israel, I am not really optimistic. Israel seems to follow the overall global trend towards the far right. From reading Israeli media in English, which admittedly makes my access limited, there seems to be a real siege culture over there right now. I would love to see a peaceful path forward for the Israelis and Palestinians under leftist governance but that seems like a pipe dream.

Anyway none of this has to do with the Democratic Party anymore. Thread drift!
i wholeheartedly agree with everything you say about Israel.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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JennyB wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:51pm
eumaas wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 6:01pm
JennyB wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 5:42pm
eumaas wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 5:39pm
JennyB wrote:
08 Apr 2020, 5:27pm


John Cusack's posts (that he doubled down on and issued a tepid "apology" for). If you recall, he tweeted an image with a quote from white nationalist and neo-Nazi Kevin Alfred Strom. The tweet suggested Jews were in control and were not allowed to be criticized. This is one example. The Dyke March. Purity tests of whether one is a good Jew (renouncing Israel) or bad Jew (those of us who believe in its right to exist) - I have witnessed this personally in my work. There are other examples that can be easily googled. Then, like in the UK, we are told by non-Jews that this isn't antisemitism. We are being gaslit because of course, I can't be antisemitic, I support the Jewish guy (which is no different from antisemitic Trump supporters who say he can't be an antisemite because Ivanka is Jewish). The tokenizing of the tiny percentage of anti-Israel Jews who use their platform to bash the rest of us. I criticize the Israeli government constantly, but I still don't pass the purity test. And I didn't even mean to get into a whole Israel thing.

I think your post also illustrates this (I am not calling you an antisemite) - you seem not to take me for my word. I feel like sometimes that we are the only group who isn't allowed to decide when people are working against them. I really wanted someone like Bernie (though not necessarily him - we don't need another old white man). I don't have any agenda to discredit the left. I want to *be* the left. I just don't feel welcome in these spaces.

Again, I am in no way trying to minimize the antisemitism on the right. I know it is much worse. But we expect that from the right. They have always been antisemitic. This is all new for me.
Wasn't about not taking you at your word, just wanted some examples because I hadn't seen anything personally.

I don't follow John Cusack on social media and I was unaware of that post. I also had no idea he was involved in the Bernie campaign. See, that's why an example is useful. Now I know Cusack is anti-semitic.

I'm sorry that asking for clarification and examples crosses some kind of line. :huh:
Not your fault - My hackles have been so raised lately that I see everything as an attack, and I didn't mean it that way. Also, it's hard to convey over writing. You're all good. :mrgreen:
Yeah, I was genuinely asking.

I mostly see Israel popping up in postcolonial/decolonization discourse on the left. I have seen people on the left step over the line in criticism of Israel before (this more like ten years ago tho), like suggesting total decolonization, which like any policy focused on big population transfers seems pretty bad to me. There are many generations of Israelis who have grown up there--just as completely decolonizing the US would be pretty impractical and horrendous, though I think the US could stand to give back a lot of land to Native Americans. The tininess of Israel doesn't compare well to decolonization proposals for the US and Canada.

There's also this anti-semitic trope that Zionist Jews control the US and are the reason for American policy towards Israel, which gets it rather reversed in my opinion--Israel is dependent on the US to some degree and ends up having to accommodate American policy, not the other way around.

For Israel the two-state solution seems dead in the water given the settlements. I would guess scaling back the ethnonationalism put in place by Likud and the ultraright would be the start to an equitable path forward.

I do agree with defenders of Israel who point out that the surrounding Arab states have done little for Palestinians, although I don't think that absolves Israel of human rights abuses either. But it's pretty awful when rich Salafist states complain about Israel's treatment of the Palestinians while doing little to help them materially.

Neil, re: the prospect of a leftier government in Israel, I am not really optimistic. Israel seems to follow the overall global trend towards the far right. From reading Israeli media in English, which admittedly makes my access limited, there seems to be a real siege culture over there right now. I would love to see a peaceful path forward for the Israelis and Palestinians under leftist governance but that seems like a pipe dream.

Anyway none of this has to do with the Democratic Party anymore. Thread drift!
i wholeheartedly agree with everything you say about Israel.
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I've studied the phenomenon of neo-provincialism in self-isolating online communities but this place takes the fucking cake.
— Clashy

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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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YOU MADE ONE MISTAKE, LENNON, YOU DOUBLE CROSSED MIKE LOVE AND LEFT HIM ALIVE

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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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Counterpoint to all you Commie worrywarts:


:twitch:
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
09 Apr 2020, 9:49am
Counterpoint to all you Commie worrywarts:


:twitch:
I'd argue that Obama and Clinton were to the right of Nixon.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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BostonBeaneater wrote:
09 Apr 2020, 11:11am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
09 Apr 2020, 9:49am
Counterpoint to all you Commie worrywarts:


:twitch:
I'd argue that Obama and Clinton were to the right of Nixon.
Definitely. Obama and Clinton weren't that dissimilar from Reagan, but more accepting of non-white males. Nixon was the last proper welfare state proponent, tho certainly moving away from it. To talk about major Democrats since McGovern as "left" is an utter disemboweling of the term.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

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