The Future of the Democratic Party

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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by WestwayKid » 27 Jan 2019, 10:20pm

Flex wrote:
27 Jan 2019, 10:09pm
There are at least three women who have announced presidential bids so far that I'd vote for ahead of HRC, and I can't imagine I'm alone there - even among pretty rank & file type Dems.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by Dr. Medulla » 28 Jan 2019, 7:42am

Plus the field will be filthy with candidates who replicate her positions (imperialist, Wall Street, classist, secularist, cosmopolitan), so why go for a candidate who is old and has well-established negative ratings with voters? Plus, MeToo makes association with Bill far more troubling than even before.

The only appeal of her running again is if we can be guaranteed that she'll be humiliated by primary voters.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by WestwayKid » 28 Jan 2019, 9:27am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 7:42am
Plus the field will be filthy with candidates who replicate her positions (imperialist, Wall Street, classist, secularist, cosmopolitan), so why go for a candidate who is old and has well-established negative ratings with voters? Plus, MeToo makes association with Bill far more troubling than even before.

The only appeal of her running again is if we can be guaranteed that she'll be humiliated by primary voters.
That's very tempting - but not sure if I even wanna roll the dice!!
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by Dr. Medulla » 28 Jan 2019, 9:50am

WestwayKid wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 9:27am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 7:42am
Plus the field will be filthy with candidates who replicate her positions (imperialist, Wall Street, classist, secularist, cosmopolitan), so why go for a candidate who is old and has well-established negative ratings with voters? Plus, MeToo makes association with Bill far more troubling than even before.

The only appeal of her running again is if we can be guaranteed that she'll be humiliated by primary voters.
That's very tempting - but not sure if I even wanna roll the dice!!
Exactly. That kind of schadenfreude would be delicious, but, yikes, what if primary voters are that fucking dumb?
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by WestwayKid » 28 Jan 2019, 9:56am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 9:50am
WestwayKid wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 9:27am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 7:42am
Plus the field will be filthy with candidates who replicate her positions (imperialist, Wall Street, classist, secularist, cosmopolitan), so why go for a candidate who is old and has well-established negative ratings with voters? Plus, MeToo makes association with Bill far more troubling than even before.

The only appeal of her running again is if we can be guaranteed that she'll be humiliated by primary voters.
That's very tempting - but not sure if I even wanna roll the dice!!
Exactly. That kind of schadenfreude would be delicious, but, yikes, what if primary voters are that fucking dumb?
Donald Trump was somehow elected - that alone should be enough for everyone to worry...!?

I really do find it crazy that she ever had (and still does to some extent) such a charged up fan base. I come from a long line of Democrats. Heck, my mom and dad met at a meeting of the Young Democrats of Wisconsin - but I could never get behind HRC. Sure, I voted for her. I even phone banked and knocked on doors for her - but she never got me that excited. I never felt that great about hitting the streets for her - I think because she never seemed genuine to me - and I think a lot of Democrats felt the same way. I just can't see what would inspire such passion in her diehard supporters. For me - even if I don't see a lot in the 2020 field that really excites me at this point - HRC is someone we move on from as quickly as possible.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by Dr. Medulla » 28 Jan 2019, 10:03am

WestwayKid wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 9:56am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 9:50am
WestwayKid wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 9:27am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 7:42am
Plus the field will be filthy with candidates who replicate her positions (imperialist, Wall Street, classist, secularist, cosmopolitan), so why go for a candidate who is old and has well-established negative ratings with voters? Plus, MeToo makes association with Bill far more troubling than even before.

The only appeal of her running again is if we can be guaranteed that she'll be humiliated by primary voters.
That's very tempting - but not sure if I even wanna roll the dice!!
Exactly. That kind of schadenfreude would be delicious, but, yikes, what if primary voters are that fucking dumb?
Donald Trump was somehow elected - that alone should be enough for everyone to worry...!?

I really do find it crazy that she ever had (and still does to some extent) such a charged up fan base. I come from a long line of Democrats. Heck, my mom and dad met at a meeting of the Young Democrats of Wisconsin - but I could never get behind HRC. Sure, I voted for her. I even phone banked and knocked on doors for her - but she never got me that excited. I never felt that great about hitting the streets for her - I think because she never seemed genuine to me - and I think a lot of Democrats felt the same way. I just can't see what would inspire such passion in her diehard supporters. For me - even if I don't see a lot in the 2020 field that really excites me at this point - HRC is someone we move on from as quickly as possible.
Yeah, I could never understand her appeal other than as (a) the not-Republican (if only in party affiliation) and (b) the first woman president. She's a lousy, practically contemptuous campaigner and her values are goddamned sinister. Make her a Republican man and plenty of liberals would be appalled by what remains.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by WestwayKid » 28 Jan 2019, 10:41am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 10:03am
WestwayKid wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 9:56am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 9:50am
WestwayKid wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 9:27am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 7:42am
Plus the field will be filthy with candidates who replicate her positions (imperialist, Wall Street, classist, secularist, cosmopolitan), so why go for a candidate who is old and has well-established negative ratings with voters? Plus, MeToo makes association with Bill far more troubling than even before.

The only appeal of her running again is if we can be guaranteed that she'll be humiliated by primary voters.
That's very tempting - but not sure if I even wanna roll the dice!!
Exactly. That kind of schadenfreude would be delicious, but, yikes, what if primary voters are that fucking dumb?
Donald Trump was somehow elected - that alone should be enough for everyone to worry...!?

I really do find it crazy that she ever had (and still does to some extent) such a charged up fan base. I come from a long line of Democrats. Heck, my mom and dad met at a meeting of the Young Democrats of Wisconsin - but I could never get behind HRC. Sure, I voted for her. I even phone banked and knocked on doors for her - but she never got me that excited. I never felt that great about hitting the streets for her - I think because she never seemed genuine to me - and I think a lot of Democrats felt the same way. I just can't see what would inspire such passion in her diehard supporters. For me - even if I don't see a lot in the 2020 field that really excites me at this point - HRC is someone we move on from as quickly as possible.
Yeah, I could never understand her appeal other than as (a) the not-Republican (if only in party affiliation) and (b) the first woman president. She's a lousy, practically contemptuous campaigner and her values are goddamned sinister. Make her a Republican man and plenty of liberals would be appalled by what remains.
I had a discussion with a Republican friend the other day. I asked him how he could continue to blindly follow Trump and he really couldn't give me an answer that really satisfied my question. It seemed to come down to just holding the party line. That got me thinking about political parties and how we relate to them. I identify as a Democrat - but I hope that I never let that define my ideology. I never want to get to the point where I answer a question based solely upon what the Democrats think. I look at the establishment Democrats and I see a lot of things I don't like. I see too many things that don't relate to my life and the lives of those I care about. I think it's so important to hold them accountable. They might be in charge of the party - but they must always know they are not truly in charge and that's where I think being a party ideologue is dangerous. If too many people blindly follow because they think they have to fall in line - then those in charge get to do whatever they want because in their minds the members of their party will always follow. That's how you get people like HRC and a party establishment that feels like it can push lousy candidates and crummy policies on us. We have to be unafraid to be critical - because being critical won't hurt the party we follow - being critical will hopefully help guide it in the right direction and I'm trying to not be too cynical here. There is a part of me that wants to just think we have no say - that the establishment is too entrenched - but that's also what they want us to think.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by Dr. Medulla » 28 Jan 2019, 11:18am

WestwayKid wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 10:41am
I had a discussion with a Republican friend the other day. I asked him how he could continue to blindly follow Trump and he really couldn't give me an answer that really satisfied my question. It seemed to come down to just holding the party line. That got me thinking about political parties and how we relate to them. I identify as a Democrat - but I hope that I never let that define my ideology. I never want to get to the point where I answer a question based solely upon what the Democrats think. I look at the establishment Democrats and I see a lot of things I don't like. I see too many things that don't relate to my life and the lives of those I care about. I think it's so important to hold them accountable. They might be in charge of the party - but they must always know they are not truly in charge and that's where I think being a party ideologue is dangerous. If too many people blindly follow because they think they have to fall in line - then those in charge get to do whatever they want because in their minds the members of their party will always follow. That's how you get people like HRC and a party establishment that feels like it can push lousy candidates and crummy policies on us. We have to be unafraid to be critical - because being critical won't hurt the party we follow - being critical will hopefully help guide it in the right direction and I'm trying to not be too cynical here. There is a part of me that wants to just think we have no say - that the establishment is too entrenched - but that's also what they want us to think.
I could never join a political party no matter how much I might identify with its goals or principles. I've mentioned elsewhere that it comes down to the corrupted definition of teamwork. In practice, it means shutting up and following the leader for the supposed good of the group. But why can't it mean being the voice of dissent when you think the team will be harmed by a course of action? It's that hostility to critical thinking, to constructive dissent, that makes me so averse to joining anything. That means I excuse myself from any possible seat at the table, but I just don't have a tolerance for abiding by loyalty for the sake of loyalty or because the other side is so evil I have to hold my tongue.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by Silent Majority » 29 Jan 2019, 11:14am

Don't think the guy's great, but we need Bernie to run again. Everyone else is in the field is sheer neoliberalism in a very expensive suit and we need him in the Primary to drag the conversation leftish.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by Dr. Medulla » 29 Jan 2019, 11:31am

Silent Majority wrote:
29 Jan 2019, 11:14am
Don't think the guy's great, but we need Bernie to run again. Everyone else is in the field is sheer neoliberalism in a very expensive suit and we need him in the Primary to drag the conversation leftish.
I agree. Sanders and Warren are important for, hopefully, forcing the gaggle of neoliberals leftward by empowering that bloc of voters. If Republican primary voters can make the candidates worse than they are (e.g., Romney), then maybe Democrats can make their candidates better than they are.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by Wolter » 29 Jan 2019, 11:32am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 11:18am
WestwayKid wrote:
28 Jan 2019, 10:41am
I had a discussion with a Republican friend the other day. I asked him how he could continue to blindly follow Trump and he really couldn't give me an answer that really satisfied my question. It seemed to come down to just holding the party line. That got me thinking about political parties and how we relate to them. I identify as a Democrat - but I hope that I never let that define my ideology. I never want to get to the point where I answer a question based solely upon what the Democrats think. I look at the establishment Democrats and I see a lot of things I don't like. I see too many things that don't relate to my life and the lives of those I care about. I think it's so important to hold them accountable. They might be in charge of the party - but they must always know they are not truly in charge and that's where I think being a party ideologue is dangerous. If too many people blindly follow because they think they have to fall in line - then those in charge get to do whatever they want because in their minds the members of their party will always follow. That's how you get people like HRC and a party establishment that feels like it can push lousy candidates and crummy policies on us. We have to be unafraid to be critical - because being critical won't hurt the party we follow - being critical will hopefully help guide it in the right direction and I'm trying to not be too cynical here. There is a part of me that wants to just think we have no say - that the establishment is too entrenched - but that's also what they want us to think.
I could never join a political party no matter how much I might identify with its goals or principles. I've mentioned elsewhere that it comes down to the corrupted definition of teamwork. In practice, it means shutting up and following the leader for the supposed good of the group. But why can't it mean being the voice of dissent when you think the team will be harmed by a course of action? It's that hostility to critical thinking, to constructive dissent, that makes me so averse to joining anything. That means I excuse myself from any possible seat at the table, but I just don't have a tolerance for abiding by loyalty for the sake of loyalty or because the other side is so evil I have to hold my tongue.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by Dr. Medulla » 01 Feb 2019, 9:33am

Woo hoo, more centrists to the rescue!
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/01/politics ... index.html
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by Silent Majority » 01 Feb 2019, 11:58am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Feb 2019, 9:33am
Woo hoo, more centrists to the rescue!
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/01/politics ... index.html
I'm bound to say this kind of thing, but AOC is the only Dem who could beat Trump.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by Rat Patrol » 01 Feb 2019, 12:27pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Feb 2019, 9:33am
Woo hoo, more centrists to the rescue!
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/01/politics ... index.html
That will be a brutishly short campaign. Booker's got skeletons...big skeletons. And allegedly a few babymommas.
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Re: The Future of the Democratic Party

Post by WestwayKid » 01 Feb 2019, 12:34pm

Silent Majority wrote:
01 Feb 2019, 11:58am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
01 Feb 2019, 9:33am
Woo hoo, more centrists to the rescue!
https://www.cnn.com/2019/02/01/politics ... index.html
I'm bound to say this kind of thing, but AOC is the only Dem who could beat Trump.
I'm underwhelmed by the field so far. Maybe it is because there is so much at stake that picking the right candidate has never been more important. 2016 left such a bad taste in my mouth, too. The choice of HRC was really disappointing - but it also opened my eyes to how much mediocrity exists in the Democratic Party. Maybe I was naive, but the Obama years really fired me up and returning to such watered down candidates has been a really bummer. I know there isn't a perfect candidate - but I'm still hoping someone better enters the race.
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