Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

Post by Mark^Bastard »

revbob wrote:
02 Dec 2022, 10:43am
Flex wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 11:32pm
Mark^Bastard wrote:
01 Dec 2022, 10:40pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
28 Nov 2022, 8:58am
I've told students before that the huge, massive, colossal flaw in the right's claim that there's a left-wing conspiracy, like, everywhere is that actual left-wingers couldn't organize a bar trivia night without falling into pointless factionalism. It'd be kind of neat if the left were as united and purposeful as they exist in the paranoid imagination of the right.
Leftists are like Linux distros. There's so fucking many varieties and a lot of them have the same purpose. They're also all mostly completely inaccessible to a 'normal' person, because the person that invented them was more or less designing their own utopia anyway haha.
This is perhaps the best analogy of leftist factionalism that I've read, lol
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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

Post by Flex »

Just a random bit of thinking here, but I've been following Kevin Carson on Mastadon and he shared a conversation he and Roderick Long had on pandemic safety measure a couple years ago:
KevinCarson1 wrote:Roderick Long: Well, the state has no just authority to exist in the first place. But I think some restrictions on contribution to a pandemic are justified by the non-aggression principle; in a free society they would be enacted by polycentric horizontal associations rather than by a state. What should their exact content be? That's an issue that should be hashed out in consultation with epidemiologists, libertarian legal theorists, and affected businesses.

Me: As opposed to the current more-or-less liberal/atomistic model where there are just individuals and neutral public space, and the Hoppean ancap model where all public squares are the private property of individuals and corporations, I think the appropriate model is something like the precapitalist one where most public spaces are common property of their inhabitants/users. And in this sense, members of a neighborhood or community would likely have the same authority for setting basic safety rules for use of public space that a household would have for its own space. IMO we need alternative models that don't accept the dissolution of the commons and social atomization accomplished by the state and by capitalism as "natural," and simply revert to a "private" atomized model with the state removed.

As it is, the state has dissolved and atomized preexisting communal and organic institutions, inserted itself into the vacant space left by their destruction, and has preempted their functions (albeit performing them very imperfectly). So simply abolishing the state's power to perform these functions, with nothing else to put in place besides just presuming the continued atomization the state itself created but without the state, is like trying to transform a car into a bicycle by taking two wheels off.
And an exchange in reply:
eboyd32 wrote:@KevinCarson1 your response basically expands on Chomsky’s criticism of Long that abolishing the state is an incoherent strategy in the here and now, and is a good reminder that the work of folks who actually have interest in bringing about whatever we might think of as “revolution” looks a lot more like the slow, thankless, and arduous work that mutual aid groups, FnB, the EZLN, Freetown Christiania, and others building community and solidarity to create a new and better world within the shell of the old than it does like some nebulous destruction of the state apparatus, or the creation of socialist institutions within the boundaries of state structures.
And Carson's response:
KevinCarson1 wrote:@eboyd32 Yeah, I agree that simply abolishing the state without regard to the background context, the order in which it is dismantled, or what it's being replaced with is a non-starter.
OTOH I think Chomsky is also incoherent for thinking "private governments" could simply take over society without a state to externalize their operating costs -- including the cost of enforcing private property titles -- on the general population.
My primary comment wasn't so much on the order of operations, as on how we conceive of society without the state. We need to stop thinking of a stateless society as just what we have now, with the formal government apparatus removed. The "state" is not just the "gummint," as per right-libertarian usage. It's an entire structure of power into which the government is integrated as enforcement arm.
Full thread: https://mastodon.social/@KevinCarson1@o ... 7933725335

I think this is good thinking, and a breathe of fresh air after (at least what feels like to me) the shift in dominant discourse towards the left promoting a more powerful state and the centralization of authority. Always circling back to sort of foundational stuff seems frustratingly calcifying at times but I think one difference in my mind is that 10 or 15 years ago if someone asked me if the left, broadly, had basically the same first principles and visions I would have said yeah sure but now seeing the resurgence in, particularly, the nostalgia and embrace of soviet-era authoritarian leftism I think Carson's thrust of the need to conceive of how we actually think of society without the state, if we do at all, is probably more important than I used to really think.

On the original post, I admit my conception of how you work through a public health response in a pandemic without a powerful state was sort of an open question to me the last few years, and this is a thought provoking alternative. Certainly, what Carson imagines doesn't seem like it would lead to particularly worse outcomes than what we've seen around most of the world.
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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

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All that speaks to my fundamental rejection of any leftist labels or ideologies (rather, any ideologies). Abstraction lends itself to critique (a very good thing) and destructive solutions (generally a very bad thing). It's good for identifying problems, but less good for conceiving of going from removing the problem to being in a better place. There is this big blank space where people just buy into better thinking and behaving thanks to, I guess, the removal of the poison from the system. What, in concrete terms, exactly is the better place that we should be striving for? It's a much harder question and one that should backburner enemies … which almost certainly makes it lose practical appeal.
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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

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What’s key here in Carson’s model is the direction of travel is built up via communal consent as built up via discussion and debate in a community that actively engages with science and has the common good at the heart of its decision-making. The issue we’re encountering with the right in the pandemic era is that their hyper-individualist agitation can now happen across international organising (albeit astroturfed in many cases by dark money, for whatever reason) and channels the human need for liberty toward anti-social ends.
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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

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What's perverse about the right's claims of liberty and Gadsden flags and all that is that early national era ideas of liberty were not divorced from an idea of common good or responsibility to the community. Liberty was, in no small part, meant to allow one to not be a burden to their community and also to allow one to aid those that did need assistance. Liberty is not an anti-social principle but one profoundly social in thought and behaviour. It's wrapped up in conscience and duty. Citizenship doesn't mean fuck you, it means being available to help and knowing others will be available to help you.
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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
13 Dec 2022, 9:25am
What's perverse about the right's claims of liberty and Gadsden flags and all that is that early national era ideas of liberty were not divorced from an idea of common good or responsibility to the community. Liberty was, in no small part, meant to allow one to not be a burden to their community and also to allow one to aid those that did need assistance. Liberty is not an anti-social principle but one profoundly social in thought and behaviour. It's wrapped up in conscience and duty. Citizenship doesn't mean fuck you, it means being available to help and knowing others will be available to help you.
Absolutely; and the best of that concept lives on in left-libertarianism, I’d argue. The current American right is what happens when you evolve a political philosophy from a misunderstood Thomas Jefferson quote on an overpriced yellow t-shirt.
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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

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Silent Majority wrote:
13 Dec 2022, 10:14am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
13 Dec 2022, 9:25am
What's perverse about the right's claims of liberty and Gadsden flags and all that is that early national era ideas of liberty were not divorced from an idea of common good or responsibility to the community. Liberty was, in no small part, meant to allow one to not be a burden to their community and also to allow one to aid those that did need assistance. Liberty is not an anti-social principle but one profoundly social in thought and behaviour. It's wrapped up in conscience and duty. Citizenship doesn't mean fuck you, it means being available to help and knowing others will be available to help you.
Absolutely; and the best of that concept lives on in left-libertarianism, I’d argue. The current American right is what happens when you evolve a political philosophy from a misunderstood Thomas Jefferson quote on an overpriced yellow t-shirt.
A lot of ugly ideas spring forth from the first principle of "amidst my material comfort are parasites."
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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

Post by Flex »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
13 Dec 2022, 10:23am
Silent Majority wrote:
13 Dec 2022, 10:14am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
13 Dec 2022, 9:25am
What's perverse about the right's claims of liberty and Gadsden flags and all that is that early national era ideas of liberty were not divorced from an idea of common good or responsibility to the community. Liberty was, in no small part, meant to allow one to not be a burden to their community and also to allow one to aid those that did need assistance. Liberty is not an anti-social principle but one profoundly social in thought and behaviour. It's wrapped up in conscience and duty. Citizenship doesn't mean fuck you, it means being available to help and knowing others will be available to help you.
Absolutely; and the best of that concept lives on in left-libertarianism, I’d argue. The current American right is what happens when you evolve a political philosophy from a misunderstood Thomas Jefferson quote on an overpriced yellow t-shirt.
A lot of ugly ideas spring forth from the first principle of "amidst my material comfort are parasites."
Great slogan for this board, tho :shifty:
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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

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Flex wrote:
13 Dec 2022, 10:24am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
13 Dec 2022, 10:23am
Silent Majority wrote:
13 Dec 2022, 10:14am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
13 Dec 2022, 9:25am
What's perverse about the right's claims of liberty and Gadsden flags and all that is that early national era ideas of liberty were not divorced from an idea of common good or responsibility to the community. Liberty was, in no small part, meant to allow one to not be a burden to their community and also to allow one to aid those that did need assistance. Liberty is not an anti-social principle but one profoundly social in thought and behaviour. It's wrapped up in conscience and duty. Citizenship doesn't mean fuck you, it means being available to help and knowing others will be available to help you.
Absolutely; and the best of that concept lives on in left-libertarianism, I’d argue. The current American right is what happens when you evolve a political philosophy from a misunderstood Thomas Jefferson quote on an overpriced yellow t-shirt.
A lot of ugly ideas spring forth from the first principle of "amidst my material comfort are parasites."
Great slogan for this board, tho :shifty:
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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

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Review of a new book that seeks to highlight libertarianism's left roots: https://jacobin.com/2023/04/libertarian ... ises-rand/
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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Apr 2023, 6:59am
Review of a new book that seeks to highlight libertarianism's left roots: https://jacobin.com/2023/04/libertarian ... ises-rand/
Sounds like a good read. It was Gene, years ago, who got me wise to the BHL movement (such as it is) and these authors. I agree with the reviewer here: left/bleeding heart libertarianism is such a miniscule movement these days that it's difficult to see how allying would even really happen. Still, it's definitely the strain of political thinking where my heart still lies.

Perhaps somewhat ironically, in my experience it did seem like BHL style left-libertarianism was on its way to making something of a comeback until 2016 and the movement of energy via the Bernie Sanders campaign to DSA-style socialism. That seems around when most/all the left-libertarian organizing I was aware of sort of collapsed or faded. People either threw their lot in with the Sanders crowd or went back into the more right-leaning fold. In my mind, there's something of a post-2016 road not taken to imagine where the left center of gravity shifted more to left-libertarian organizing and less to the particular flavor of Democratic Socialism that dominates at the moment.

Also, reading a review in Jacobin claiming that a radical political movement doesn't have enough adherents to make it a major force definitely gives off spiderman pointing at spiderman meme vibes. It's not a wrong observation at all, but physician heal thyself.
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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

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Flex wrote:
10 Apr 2023, 8:54am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
10 Apr 2023, 6:59am
Review of a new book that seeks to highlight libertarianism's left roots: https://jacobin.com/2023/04/libertarian ... ises-rand/
Sounds like a good read. It was Gene, years ago, who got me wise to the BHL movement (such as it is) and these authors. I agree with the reviewer here: left/bleeding heart libertarianism is such a miniscule movement these days that it's difficult to see how allying would even really happen. Still, it's definitely the strain of political thinking where my heart still lies.

Perhaps somewhat ironically, in my experience it did seem like BHL style left-libertarianism was on its way to making something of a comeback until 2016 and the movement of energy via the Bernie Sanders campaign to DSA-style socialism. That seems around when most/all the left-libertarian organizing I was aware of sort of collapsed or faded. People either threw their lot in with the Sanders crowd or went back into the more right-leaning fold. In my mind, there's something of a post-2016 road not taken to imagine where the left center of gravity shifted more to left-libertarian organizing and less to the particular flavor of Democratic Socialism that dominates at the moment.

Also, reading a review in Jacobin claiming that a radical political movement doesn't have enough adherents to make it a major force definitely gives off spiderman pointing at spiderman meme vibes. It's not a wrong observation at all, but physician heal thyself.
Whatever the marginal nature of a present movement or organization, I am a strong adherent in the unpredictability of the future with regards to politics. That is to say, the great failure in insight is to say that the future will be like the present but more so. History zigs and zags more than it flows. So a book like this is valuable in nurturing a seed that may seem already doomed … but maybe not. With the erosion, if not collapse, of neoliberalism, a lot of stuff is up in the air. Plus, as right libertarianism is increasingly throwing in its lot with right authoritarianism, there’s a gap opening.
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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

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I can already wince at some of the potential future discussion this could engender, but it's too interesting (I think) not to share. Got turned onto this tweet thread today and I think it articulates pretty well some of the splits on the left lately (read through the whole thing):


I hesitate to endorse the whole thread, simply because I'm still thinking about it, but the idea of "left illiberals" certainly has the feeling of a good and correct insight.
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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

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Flex wrote:
22 Aug 2023, 8:00pm
I can already wince at some of the potential future discussion this could engender, but it's too interesting (I think) not to share. Got turned onto this tweet thread today and I think it articulates pretty well some of the splits on the left lately (read through the whole thing):


I hesitate to endorse the whole thread, simply because I'm still thinking about it, but the idea of "left illiberals" certainly has the feeling of a good and correct insight.
My immediate reaction—so, kneejerk caveats—is that part of the problem is that the right has all-but abandoned democratic norms. The right has forcefully rejected a duopoly. And we've seen this movie before. In the 1920s and 1930s, there were political movements on the left and right that rejected liberal democracy. And as much as I reject what the liberal centre represents—at least on economic matters—I don't see it as a closed and intolerant as I do the right and, in many respects, the left. There is still the sense of possibility and of evolution there. I can appreciate in an abstract sense the critiques of liberalism from the left that dovetail with the right, but it must be confined for me to criticism. When prescription from the left parallels the right, then I'll run to the centre.
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Re: Anarchism, Marxism and Radical Politics

Post by Wolter »

I do think blaming the far left for the right’s success is also a dead end (given that the far right consistently don’t play fair and no one left of center ever seems to realize that actually does mean just telling people to vote is insufficient), though I do not have twitter on my phone anymore to read the whole thread right now.
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