Popular history loves the trope of the crisis and the right man (and it's almost always a man) for the moment. Churchill and World War II. Kennedy and the Cuban Missile Crisis. Lincoln and the Civil War. Far more interesting to me are those disasters that occur because the leadership is so utterly inappropriate. Hoover and the Great Depression. Nixon and domestic unrest. And, pretty clearly, May and Brexit. Maybe this would have been a paralyzing shitshow no matter what, but her inability to command the respect of her party on this issue is so damning.Flex wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 2:50pmIncredible how badly May has misplayed her hand: https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfr ... ker-ruling
Brexit what Brexit!
- Dr. Medulla
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Re: Brexit what Brexit!
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Low Down Low
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Re: Brexit what Brexit!
I have a shocking weakness for feeling unavoidable twinges of sympathy for even the vilest of characters in adversity, but watching her pathetic countenance in the Commons last week, I was struggling to find any feeling. She inherited a mess from her predecessor to be fair, but immediately decided the only way to fix it was to approach all the loons and crazies in her party and ask for their wish list. Worst PM since the war without a shadow of a doubt.
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Re: Brexit what Brexit!
Thatcher was certainly more competent, but doesn't her success make her worse? I can't imagine more people eventually celebrating May's death the way they did Thatcher's.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Low Down Low
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Re: Brexit what Brexit!
I was thinking in terms of competency which I thought was how these things were generally judged. Chamberlain also in the mix. In terms of odiousness Thatcher is in a category all on her own.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 5:17pmThatcher was certainly more competent, but doesn't her success make her worse? I can't imagine more people eventually celebrating May's death the way they did Thatcher's.
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Re: Brexit what Brexit!
Okay, yeah, in terms of competency, May, Cameron, and Callaghan have to be the postwar dud triumvirate.Low Down Low wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 5:28pmI was thinking in terms of competency which I thought was how these things were generally judged. Chamberlain also in the mix. In terms of odiousness Thatcher is in a category all on her own.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 5:17pmThatcher was certainly more competent, but doesn't her success make her worse? I can't imagine more people eventually celebrating May's death the way they did Thatcher's.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
- 101Walterton
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Re: Brexit what Brexit!
Don’t forget Major Tom.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 5:51pmOkay, yeah, in terms of competency, May, Cameron, and Callaghan have to be the postwar dud triumvirate.Low Down Low wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 5:28pmI was thinking in terms of competency which I thought was how these things were generally judged. Chamberlain also in the mix. In terms of odiousness Thatcher is in a category all on her own.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 5:17pmThatcher was certainly more competent, but doesn't her success make her worse? I can't imagine more people eventually celebrating May's death the way they did Thatcher's.
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Low Down Low
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Re: Brexit what Brexit!
My bad on chamberlain who gets off on the technicality of not being post-war. Cameron for his lousy austerity regime and grievous referendum miscalculation is a strong contender, but i just think history will be more savage on May. I’m currently reading Tim Shipmans Fall Out which covers the year after the referendum and it feels like reading the script of the Towering Inferno, one calamity after another leading to the inevitable inferno. Her and her advisers’ incompetence is of gobsmacking proportions.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 5:51pmOkay, yeah, in terms of competency, May, Cameron, and Callaghan have to be the postwar dud triumvirate.Low Down Low wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 5:28pmI was thinking in terms of competency which I thought was how these things were generally judged. Chamberlain also in the mix. In terms of odiousness Thatcher is in a category all on her own.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 5:17pmThatcher was certainly more competent, but doesn't her success make her worse? I can't imagine more people eventually celebrating May's death the way they did Thatcher's.
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Re: Brexit what Brexit!
Historians have become more forgiving of Chamberlain, arguing that Britain or France were in no position for another war with Germany in 1938, and selling out Czechoslovakia bought a much-needed year of preparation.Low Down Low wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 7:22pmMy bad on chamberlain who gets off on the technicality of not being post-war. Cameron for his lousy austerity regime and grievous referendum miscalculation is a strong contender, but i just think history will be more savage on May. I’m currently reading Tim Shipmans Fall Out which covers the year after the referendum and it feels like reading the script of the Towering Inferno, one calamity after another leading to the inevitable inferno. Her and her advisers’ incompetence is of gobsmacking proportions.
Between Cameron and May, I think the pigfucker is worse for bringing on the crisis in the first place. He set up the lousy card game that May is playing. I'm not sure he could have managed the mess any better or worse. Without a doubt, tho, historians and future generations will loathe them.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Re: Brexit what Brexit!
Mediocrity can be covered up when there's not crisis to expose it.101Walterton wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 6:53pmDon’t forget Major Tom.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 5:51pmOkay, yeah, in terms of competency, May, Cameron, and Callaghan have to be the postwar dud triumvirate.Low Down Low wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 5:28pmI was thinking in terms of competency which I thought was how these things were generally judged. Chamberlain also in the mix. In terms of odiousness Thatcher is in a category all on her own.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 5:17pmThatcher was certainly more competent, but doesn't her success make her worse? I can't imagine more people eventually celebrating May's death the way they did Thatcher's.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Low Down Low
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Re: Brexit what Brexit!
I guess it’s Camerons monumental cock ups against Mays monumental stupidity and it’s a tight call between them. She shades it for me, though, because I think he at least believed he was acting on behalf of the common good while her strategy - if that’s what it can be called - is based on nothing more than preserving her position as party leader, everything else be fucked. And she is surviving, which maybe hints at some kind of savvy preservational instinct, but what kind of lame, hollow victory is it truly?Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 7:47pmHistorians have become more forgiving of Chamberlain, arguing that Britain or France were in no position for another war with Germany in 1938, and selling out Czechoslovakia bought a much-needed year of preparation.Low Down Low wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 7:22pmMy bad on chamberlain who gets off on the technicality of not being post-war. Cameron for his lousy austerity regime and grievous referendum miscalculation is a strong contender, but i just think history will be more savage on May. I’m currently reading Tim Shipmans Fall Out which covers the year after the referendum and it feels like reading the script of the Towering Inferno, one calamity after another leading to the inevitable inferno. Her and her advisers’ incompetence is of gobsmacking proportions.
Between Cameron and May, I think the pigfucker is worse for bringing on the crisis in the first place. He set up the lousy card game that May is playing. I'm not sure he could have managed the mess any better or worse. Without a doubt, tho, historians and future generations will loathe them.
Re: Brexit what Brexit!
May's tenure as Home Sec was pretty awful as well — those "go home or face arrest" vans she sent around to immigrant neighbourhoods, for example.
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Re: Brexit what Brexit!
One wonders whether Thatcher might not be wretched enough for today's Tories, in the same way that Reagan and Mulroney would be on the left side of their country's conservative parties. The race to the horizon of awful is a weird drug for the right.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
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Low Down Low
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Re: Brexit what Brexit!
Find it hard to say. The guy who is favourite to become next Tory leader famously had 2 articles written the night before declaring his hand in the referendum: one for leave, one for remain. There’s no real ideaology, just basic arch opportunism. He also spent the night before the result working on his losers speech. Winning the vote was never really part of the master plan. Remind you of any other major political campaign taking place around the same time?
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Re: Brexit what Brexit!
Don't be daft mate. Her crimes (Thatcher) are numerous and we are still suffering years later. She is more than wretched enough and the modern Tory party is built in her image.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑18 Mar 2019, 8:38pmOne wonders whether Thatcher might not be wretched enough for today's Tories, in the same way that Reagan and Mulroney would be on the left side of their country's conservative parties. The race to the horizon of awful is a weird drug for the right.
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Silent Majority
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Re: Brexit what Brexit!
Had Maggie come to power in a post-Thatcher world, she would have been far worse. She was limited by a population who expected a welfare state and was several times halted from doing the terrible thing she wanted to because the public wouldn't accept it. Today, the UK's been taught it's only proper to get killed by the market.