The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
- Marky Dread
- Messiah of the Milk Bar
- Posts: 59051
- Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 11:26am
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
Say whatever you like if you are genuine. If your idea of free speech is hateful then fuck off you ain't needed.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
- Flex
- Mechano-Man of the Future
- Posts: 35991
- Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:50pm
- Location: The Information Superhighway!
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
Yeah, I think this is basically the straightforwardly correct position.Marky Dread wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 7:46amSay whatever you like if you are genuine. If your idea of free speech is hateful then fuck off you ain't needed.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead
Pex Lives!
- Marky Dread
- Messiah of the Milk Bar
- Posts: 59051
- Joined: 17 Jun 2008, 11:26am
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
I agree with all the very valid points raised by Doc, Maj and yourself. It's a very debatable subject. But I just feel it comes down to having an attitude where you have respect for one another first and foremost.Flex wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 9:17amYeah, I think this is basically the straightforwardly correct position.Marky Dread wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 7:46amSay whatever you like if you are genuine. If your idea of free speech is hateful then fuck off you ain't needed.
Forces have been looting
My humanity
Curfews have been curbing
The end of liberty
We're the flowers in the dustbin...
No fuchsias for you.
"Without the common people you're nothing"
Nos Sumus Una Familia
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
I confess to not having read all the preceding material. To me it seems like the "cancel culture" boogeyman has replaced the "political correctness " boogeyman.
Free speech is not speech without consequences. No you wont get tossed in jail for saying a bunch of hateful shit but dont presume that should also make you immune from consequences that may arise.
Free speech is not speech without consequences. No you wont get tossed in jail for saying a bunch of hateful shit but dont presume that should also make you immune from consequences that may arise.
- Dr. Medulla
- Atheistic Epileptic
- Posts: 116721
- Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
- Location: Straight Banana, Idaho
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
It's spun as the "see, we told you so" next step of political correctness. PC is (as the right spins it) about brainwashing; cancel culture is the bodily punishment when the brainwashing is not obeyed.
And that's what they won't acknowledge. They claim they want "robust debate of ideas." Okay, leaving aside the worthiness of having a robust debate on why we just debate the need to entertain debased discourse in public life, if there are no consequences to our speech—good and bad—then it's a pointless exercise, save for, I guess, some kind of therapeutic effect for the individual. If the idea of free speech is about the grandiose search for truth, of sifting the real from not, then the consequence of discovering what is bad is that it should be cast aside. That would be a good consequence. And if we believe abandoning bigotry is a good thing, well, people who insist on holding to their bigotries will be cast aside for the sake of truth. Again, it's that sense of abstract principle not being applied to social reality. We want speech to have purpose and value, and for that to be true, it needs to have consequences. And that's what the cancel culture shriekers are objecting to. They want their values to have only good consequences, not bad.Free speech is not speech without consequences. No you wont get tossed in jail for saying a bunch of hateful shit but dont presume that should also make you immune from consequences that may arise.
"Ain't no party like an S Club party!'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
- Wolter
- Half Foghorn Leghorn, Half Albert Brooks
- Posts: 55432
- Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 7:59pm
- Location: ¡HOLIDAY RO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-OAD!
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
And honestly they want free speech for themselves not others. These people “canceling” them are just exercising their right to express their own speech by saying “this idea you espoused is hateful and bad.”Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 12:15pmIt's spun as the "see, we told you so" next step of political correctness. PC is (as the right spins it) about brainwashing; cancel culture is the bodily punishment when the brainwashing is not obeyed.
And that's what they won't acknowledge. They claim they want "robust debate of ideas." Okay, leaving aside the worthiness of having a robust debate on why we just debate the need to entertain debased discourse in public life, if there are no consequences to our speech—good and bad—then it's a pointless exercise, save for, I guess, some kind of therapeutic effect for the individual. If the idea of free speech is about the grandiose search for truth, of sifting the real from not, then the consequence of discovering what is bad is that it should be cast aside. That would be a good consequence. And if we believe abandoning bigotry is a good thing, well, people who insist on holding to their bigotries will be cast aside for the sake of truth. Again, it's that sense of abstract principle not being applied to social reality. We want speech to have purpose and value, and for that to be true, it needs to have consequences. And that's what the cancel culture shriekers are objecting to. They want their values to have only good consequences, not bad.Free speech is not speech without consequences. No you wont get tossed in jail for saying a bunch of hateful shit but dont presume that should also make you immune from consequences that may arise.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson
"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"
"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
The irony of discussing any of this intellectually is that the people we're talking about (aside from the more prominent manipulators with further-reaching voices, perhaps), won't/can't understand any of it. It seems to me that if you follow any member of the FACTS and LOGIC brigade for long enough, you see that their responses to almost anything are highly emotional and instinctive resistance to the perceived loss of white supremacy rather than anything well-reasoned. Fingers in the ears "la-la-la" stuff. I'm a lot more worried about how you change somebody like that. Does the side of cultural celebration also have to play the cynical manipulation game?Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 12:15pmIt's spun as the "see, we told you so" next step of political correctness. PC is (as the right spins it) about brainwashing; cancel culture is the bodily punishment when the brainwashing is not obeyed.
And that's what they won't acknowledge. They claim they want "robust debate of ideas." Okay, leaving aside the worthiness of having a robust debate on why we just debate the need to entertain debased discourse in public life, if there are no consequences to our speech—good and bad—then it's a pointless exercise, save for, I guess, some kind of therapeutic effect for the individual. If the idea of free speech is about the grandiose search for truth, of sifting the real from not, then the consequence of discovering what is bad is that it should be cast aside. That would be a good consequence. And if we believe abandoning bigotry is a good thing, well, people who insist on holding to their bigotries will be cast aside for the sake of truth. Again, it's that sense of abstract principle not being applied to social reality. We want speech to have purpose and value, and for that to be true, it needs to have consequences. And that's what the cancel culture shriekers are objecting to. They want their values to have only good consequences, not bad.Free speech is not speech without consequences. No you wont get tossed in jail for saying a bunch of hateful shit but dont presume that should also make you immune from consequences that may arise.
"Suck our Earth dick, Martians!" —Doc
- Dr. Medulla
- Atheistic Epileptic
- Posts: 116721
- Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
- Location: Straight Banana, Idaho
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
Reapplying my idea of sacred speech—that we agree some speech is beyond the pale based on the kind of society we want—then they want, instead, a sacred speaker—someone who should be beyond criticism and consequence. Which makes it, of course, a status argument. Meaning the hoi polloi are unworthy of demanding the elite being held to the same standard of consequences for speech.Wolter wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 1:49pmAnd honestly they want free speech for themselves not others. These people “canceling” them are just exercising their right to express their own speech by saying “this idea you espoused is hateful and bad.”Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 12:15pmIt's spun as the "see, we told you so" next step of political correctness. PC is (as the right spins it) about brainwashing; cancel culture is the bodily punishment when the brainwashing is not obeyed.
And that's what they won't acknowledge. They claim they want "robust debate of ideas." Okay, leaving aside the worthiness of having a robust debate on why we just debate the need to entertain debased discourse in public life, if there are no consequences to our speech—good and bad—then it's a pointless exercise, save for, I guess, some kind of therapeutic effect for the individual. If the idea of free speech is about the grandiose search for truth, of sifting the real from not, then the consequence of discovering what is bad is that it should be cast aside. That would be a good consequence. And if we believe abandoning bigotry is a good thing, well, people who insist on holding to their bigotries will be cast aside for the sake of truth. Again, it's that sense of abstract principle not being applied to social reality. We want speech to have purpose and value, and for that to be true, it needs to have consequences. And that's what the cancel culture shriekers are objecting to. They want their values to have only good consequences, not bad.Free speech is not speech without consequences. No you wont get tossed in jail for saying a bunch of hateful shit but dont presume that should also make you immune from consequences that may arise.
"Ain't no party like an S Club party!'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
- Dr. Medulla
- Atheistic Epileptic
- Posts: 116721
- Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
- Location: Straight Banana, Idaho
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
One would hope that it's the same mindset (and fate) as French and Russian aristocrats on the cusp of revolution. A person who refuses to hear criticism from the outsider is, whether they realize it, throwing down the gauntlet, daring the other side to escalate or walk away, believing that most often the latter prevails.Kory wrote: ↑13 Jul 2020, 1:53pmThe irony of discussing any of this intellectually is that the people we're talking about (aside from the more prominent manipulators with further-reaching voices, perhaps), won't/can't understand any of it. It seems to me that if you follow any member of the FACTS and LOGIC brigade for long enough, you see that their responses to almost anything are highly emotional and instinctive resistance to the perceived loss of white supremacy rather than anything well-reasoned. Fingers in the ears "la-la-la" stuff. I'm a lot more worried about how you change somebody like that. Does the side of cultural celebration also have to play the cynical manipulation game?
"Ain't no party like an S Club party!'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
- Dr. Medulla
- Atheistic Epileptic
- Posts: 116721
- Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
- Location: Straight Banana, Idaho
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
So I'm listening to Anne Applebaum's book, Twilight of Democracy, which focuses mostly on how formerly centrist political leaders and intellectuals—those who were right in on Fukuyama's end-of-history triumphalism in the 90s. I was amused by her comments about how large segments of the population has become intolerant and fearful of diversity, of hearing the voices of "outsiders," and these politicians have taken advantage and stoked that fear and anger. Okay, well, yeah. But how tolerant of diverse, new voices are the good centrists of whom she claims to represent? They may not be reacting with bile and conspiracy theories, rather gasps and dropped monocles, but it's the same rejection of those whose opinions don't count. Applebaum's argument rests on the notion that other people are the problem.
"Ain't no party like an S Club party!'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
- Wolter
- Half Foghorn Leghorn, Half Albert Brooks
- Posts: 55432
- Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 7:59pm
- Location: ¡HOLIDAY RO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-OAD!
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
Just look at how the DNC has ignored polling on M4A and marijuana legalization. Despite mounds of evidence that both are popular, even with republicans, they dismiss it out of hand because the rank and file aren’t donors, so their opinion on laws mean nothing.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020, 10:25amSo I'm listening to Anne Applebaum's book, Twilight of Democracy, which focuses mostly on how formerly centrist political leaders and intellectuals—those who were right in on Fukuyama's end-of-history triumphalism in the 90s. I was amused by her comments about how large segments of the population has become intolerant and fearful of diversity, of hearing the voices of "outsiders," and these politicians have taken advantage and stoked that fear and anger. Okay, well, yeah. But how tolerant of diverse, new voices are the good centrists of whom she claims to represent? They may not be reacting with bile and conspiracy theories, rather gasps and dropped monocles, but it's the same rejection of those whose opinions don't count. Applebaum's argument rests on the notion that other people are the problem.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson
"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"
"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"
- Dr. Medulla
- Atheistic Epileptic
- Posts: 116721
- Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
- Location: Straight Banana, Idaho
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
Centrists look in horror at all the crazy people who find authoritarianism appealing yet fail to consider whether they may have had something to do with that. Why are people rejecting this beautiful system that has made us successful? Why are they so irrational?Wolter wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020, 10:37amJust look at how the DNC has ignored polling on M4A and marijuana legalization. Despite mounds of evidence that both are popular, even with republicans, they dismiss it out of hand because the rank and file aren’t donors, so their opinion on laws mean nothing.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020, 10:25amSo I'm listening to Anne Applebaum's book, Twilight of Democracy, which focuses mostly on how formerly centrist political leaders and intellectuals—those who were right in on Fukuyama's end-of-history triumphalism in the 90s. I was amused by her comments about how large segments of the population has become intolerant and fearful of diversity, of hearing the voices of "outsiders," and these politicians have taken advantage and stoked that fear and anger. Okay, well, yeah. But how tolerant of diverse, new voices are the good centrists of whom she claims to represent? They may not be reacting with bile and conspiracy theories, rather gasps and dropped monocles, but it's the same rejection of those whose opinions don't count. Applebaum's argument rests on the notion that other people are the problem.
"Ain't no party like an S Club party!'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
- BostonBeaneater
- Autonomous Insect Cyborg Sentinel
- Posts: 11953
- Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 7:24pm
- Location: Between the moon and New York City
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
The marijuana thing caught me by surprise. I though the cat was out of the bag with weed. Like gay marriage it's one of those things that, unless you make it part of you life, you really don't notice it.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020, 10:47amCentrists look in horror at all the crazy people who find authoritarianism appealing yet fail to consider whether they may have had something to do with that. Why are people rejecting this beautiful system that has made us successful? Why are they so irrational?Wolter wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020, 10:37amJust look at how the DNC has ignored polling on M4A and marijuana legalization. Despite mounds of evidence that both are popular, even with republicans, they dismiss it out of hand because the rank and file aren’t donors, so their opinion on laws mean nothing.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020, 10:25amSo I'm listening to Anne Applebaum's book, Twilight of Democracy, which focuses mostly on how formerly centrist political leaders and intellectuals—those who were right in on Fukuyama's end-of-history triumphalism in the 90s. I was amused by her comments about how large segments of the population has become intolerant and fearful of diversity, of hearing the voices of "outsiders," and these politicians have taken advantage and stoked that fear and anger. Okay, well, yeah. But how tolerant of diverse, new voices are the good centrists of whom she claims to represent? They may not be reacting with bile and conspiracy theories, rather gasps and dropped monocles, but it's the same rejection of those whose opinions don't count. Applebaum's argument rests on the notion that other people are the problem.
- Dr. Medulla
- Atheistic Epileptic
- Posts: 116721
- Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
- Location: Straight Banana, Idaho
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
It's been legal here for a few years now and I don't smell it walking around outside any more than I used to. I know that one of my sisters is now buying it for anxiety, but I don't know of anyone else who has changed their habits, using or not, since it went legal, other than perhaps to get better quality.BostonBeaneater wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020, 11:26amThe marijuana thing caught me by surprise. I though the cat was out of the bag with weed. Like gay marriage it's one of those things that, unless you make it part of you life, you really don't notice it.
"Ain't no party like an S Club party!'" - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft
- Wolter
- Half Foghorn Leghorn, Half Albert Brooks
- Posts: 55432
- Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 7:59pm
- Location: ¡HOLIDAY RO-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-O-OAD!
Re: The Harper's Letter, Cancel Culture, and Free Speech
admittedly, it was only legal in IL for like 3 months before quarantine, but there was zero public change in anything that I could see.Dr. Medulla wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020, 11:33amIt's been legal here for a few years now and I don't smell it walking around outside any more than I used to. I know that one of my sisters is now buying it for anxiety, but I don't know of anyone else who has changed their habits, using or not, since it went legal, other than perhaps to get better quality.BostonBeaneater wrote: ↑29 Jul 2020, 11:26amThe marijuana thing caught me by surprise. I though the cat was out of the bag with weed. Like gay marriage it's one of those things that, unless you make it part of you life, you really don't notice it.
”INDER LOCK THE THE KISS THREAD IVE REALISED IM A PRZE IDOOT” - Thomas Jefferson
"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"
"But the gorilla thinks otherwise!"