If you really wanna go - alive or dead my friend

[drowninghere]

.

[gkbill]

And Im hearing/seeing this sort of thing:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-60555650

Poland is run by goons. One of the historians where I teach is a Holocaust scholar, specializing in the Polish experience, and he's been targeted for harassment (and worse; I don't think he can set foot in Poland without being arrested now) because of his work showing the active participation of Poles.

Tangential supplementary: Contrary to Canada's myths, a lot of slaves who escaped via the underground railroad were denied entry into Canada. Presumably it depended on the bureaucrat who dealt with the case. All kinds of reasons were presented, usually health-related, to say, sorry, you'll have to stay in the US; hope a slavecatcher doesn't find you.

The Polish government is dead-set on changing the narrative of their complicity during the Holocaust. It's terrifying.

Not wholly dissimilar to the efforts to write-out racism and slavery (or at least the yucky parts) from school curricula in the US. Really cool that the West won the Cold War, defeating an Orwellian state and all so that openness and truth would flood the globe.

Hello,

What are non-yucky parts of slavery? You don't have to worry about losing your job? Asking for a friend.

[Dr. Medulla]

And Im hearing/seeing this sort of thing:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-60555650

Poland is run by goons. One of the historians where I teach is a Holocaust scholar, specializing in the Polish experience, and he's been targeted for harassment (and worse; I don't think he can set foot in Poland without being arrested now) because of his work showing the active participation of Poles.

Tangential supplementary: Contrary to Canada's myths, a lot of slaves who escaped via the underground railroad were denied entry into Canada. Presumably it depended on the bureaucrat who dealt with the case. All kinds of reasons were presented, usually health-related, to say, sorry, you'll have to stay in the US; hope a slavecatcher doesn't find you.

The Polish government is dead-set on changing the narrative of their complicity during the Holocaust. It's terrifying.

Not wholly dissimilar to the efforts to write-out racism and slavery (or at least the yucky parts) from school curricula in the US. Really cool that the West won the Cold War, defeating an Orwellian state and all so that openness and truth would flood the globe.

Hello,

What are non-yucky parts of slavery? You don't have to worry about losing your job? Asking for a friend.

To hear some clearly well-educated white people who like to yell on the radio explain it, there was shelter, food, and, never forget, civilization. Why, if it were so bad, why wouldn't the slaves just up and walk out? We'll be back after this message from Trump Steaks.

[JennyB]

And Im hearing/seeing this sort of thing:
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-africa-60555650

Poland is run by goons. One of the historians where I teach is a Holocaust scholar, specializing in the Polish experience, and he's been targeted for harassment (and worse; I don't think he can set foot in Poland without being arrested now) because of his work showing the active participation of Poles.

Tangential supplementary: Contrary to Canada's myths, a lot of slaves who escaped via the underground railroad were denied entry into Canada. Presumably it depended on the bureaucrat who dealt with the case. All kinds of reasons were presented, usually health-related, to say, sorry, you'll have to stay in the US; hope a slavecatcher doesn't find you.

The Polish government is dead-set on changing the narrative of their complicity during the Holocaust. It's terrifying.

Not wholly dissimilar to the efforts to write-out racism and slavery (or at least the yucky parts) from school curricula in the US. Really cool that the West won the Cold War, defeating an Orwellian state and all so that openness and truth would flood the globe.

Absolutely.

[gkbill]

Poland is run by goons. One of the historians where I teach is a Holocaust scholar, specializing in the Polish experience, and he's been targeted for harassment (and worse; I don't think he can set foot in Poland without being arrested now) because of his work showing the active participation of Poles.

Tangential supplementary: Contrary to Canada's myths, a lot of slaves who escaped via the underground railroad were denied entry into Canada. Presumably it depended on the bureaucrat who dealt with the case. All kinds of reasons were presented, usually health-related, to say, sorry, you'll have to stay in the US; hope a slavecatcher doesn't find you.

The Polish government is dead-set on changing the narrative of their complicity during the Holocaust. It's terrifying.

Not wholly dissimilar to the efforts to write-out racism and slavery (or at least the yucky parts) from school curricula in the US. Really cool that the West won the Cold War, defeating an Orwellian state and all so that openness and truth would flood the globe.

Hello,

What are non-yucky parts of slavery? You don't have to worry about losing your job? Asking for a friend.

To hear some clearly well-educated white people who like to yell on the radio explain it, there was shelter, food, and, never forget, civilization. Why, if it were so bad, why wouldn't the slaves just up and walk out? We'll be back after this message from Trump Steaks.

Hello,

I'm sure you can recall hearing those same arguments from your NC days!

[Marky Dread]

Poland is run by goons. One of the historians where I teach is a Holocaust scholar, specializing in the Polish experience, and he's been targeted for harassment (and worse; I don't think he can set foot in Poland without being arrested now) because of his work showing the active participation of Poles.

Tangential supplementary: Contrary to Canada's myths, a lot of slaves who escaped via the underground railroad were denied entry into Canada. Presumably it depended on the bureaucrat who dealt with the case. All kinds of reasons were presented, usually health-related, to say, sorry, you'll have to stay in the US; hope a slavecatcher doesn't find you.

The Polish government is dead-set on changing the narrative of their complicity during the Holocaust. It's terrifying.

Not wholly dissimilar to the efforts to write-out racism and slavery (or at least the yucky parts) from school curricula in the US. Really cool that the West won the Cold War, defeating an Orwellian state and all so that openness and truth would flood the globe.

Hello,

What are non-yucky parts of slavery? You don't have to worry about losing your job? Asking for a friend.

To hear some clearly well-educated white people who like to yell on the radio explain it, there was shelter, food, and, never forget, civilization. Why, if it were so bad, why wouldn't the slaves just up and walk out? We'll be back after this message from Trump Steaks.

They even got Trump steaks? Honestly some people it's just moan, moan, moan.

[Dr. Medulla]

The Polish government is dead-set on changing the narrative of their complicity during the Holocaust. It's terrifying.

Not wholly dissimilar to the efforts to write-out racism and slavery (or at least the yucky parts) from school curricula in the US. Really cool that the West won the Cold War, defeating an Orwellian state and all so that openness and truth would flood the globe.

Hello,

What are non-yucky parts of slavery? You don't have to worry about losing your job? Asking for a friend.

To hear some clearly well-educated white people who like to yell on the radio explain it, there was shelter, food, and, never forget, civilization. Why, if it were so bad, why wouldn't the slaves just up and walk out? We'll be back after this message from Trump Steaks.

Hello,

I'm sure you can recall hearing those same arguments from your NC days!

Ha! Indeed. Not on campus, of course, but in public, yeah. And that was in the mid-90s. Those assholes have become much bolder about it since.

[Dr. Medulla]

The Polish government is dead-set on changing the narrative of their complicity during the Holocaust. It's terrifying.

Not wholly dissimilar to the efforts to write-out racism and slavery (or at least the yucky parts) from school curricula in the US. Really cool that the West won the Cold War, defeating an Orwellian state and all so that openness and truth would flood the globe.

Hello,

What are non-yucky parts of slavery? You don't have to worry about losing your job? Asking for a friend.

To hear some clearly well-educated white people who like to yell on the radio explain it, there was shelter, food, and, never forget, civilization. Why, if it were so bad, why wouldn't the slaves just up and walk out? We'll be back after this message from Trump Steaks.

They even got Trump steaks? Honestly some people it's just moan, moan, moan.

Not everybody values cow rectum. Some people think they're royalty.

[Marky Dread]

Not wholly dissimilar to the efforts to write-out racism and slavery (or at least the yucky parts) from school curricula in the US. Really cool that the West won the Cold War, defeating an Orwellian state and all so that openness and truth would flood the globe.

Hello,

What are non-yucky parts of slavery? You don't have to worry about losing your job? Asking for a friend.

To hear some clearly well-educated white people who like to yell on the radio explain it, there was shelter, food, and, never forget, civilization. Why, if it were so bad, why wouldn't the slaves just up and walk out? We'll be back after this message from Trump Steaks.

They even got Trump steaks? Honestly some people it's just moan, moan, moan.

Not everybody values cow rectum. Some people think they're royalty.

Trump = rump. Good to see him falling behind.

[Flex]

Alrighty, I'll give a crack at some response here HB. Some agreement, some disagreement, maybe just some alternate perspective on a couple items. Also, apologies for any inadequacies in response on my part. It's been a while since I've tried to a deep dive political post and, uh, they're not that easy to put together when you're caring for a baby at the same time, I'm finding out.

Okay, wouldn't this be a much more apt description of the US during the 2014 coup? Putin said in that speech that the goal is the "demilitarization and denazification" of Ukraine. This is not an Imperialist war. This is not a prolonged occupation, an attempt to annex the country as a whole, or even an attempt at regime-change (which would be standard operating procedure for the US), as Putin has made clear that he's fine with Zelensky remaining in power as long as just two demands are met...

1) A guarantee of Ukrainian neutrality (i.e., stop seeking NATO membership)
2) A guarantee to remove all foreign weaponry from Ukraine (i.e., the metric tons of "lethal aid" sent by the US that would be used for continued ethnic cleansing in Donbass)

This military operation will be called off if these two requests are met. Members of Ukrainian parliament have urged Zelensky to agree to these terms, which seems like a no-brainer, especially given the disparity between Ukraine's military capabilities and Russia's.

So, I guess just to tee up right away my general position, and to borrow the title of the classic Redskins album: neither Washington nor Moscow. You'll get no disagreement from me that the United States represents the world's biggest imperial power and we meddle in affairs of which we have no business meddling, pretty much universally to very poor result. But that alone, to me, doesn't render Russia anti-imperialist, left wing, or de facto worth supporting.

You haven't specifically mentioned it here, and I'm not presuming your thoughts one way or the other, but I'm against Campism and also don't really find theories of bipolar power accelerating the development of socialism compelling. Also, I'm a libertarian socialist (for lack of a better term), not a marxist per se, so broadly speaking I want to see the world reorder itself in ways that I think are fairly different than a lot of the folks I see being more supportive of Russia here in the West.

As for whether Russia is engaged in a war of conquest: we disagree here. I don't believe this has been posted yet when you made your original post, but Russian state news accidentally put out a victory announcement which was filled with, by my reading, blood and soil rhetoric and talk of a ukraine finally reunited with Russia: https://news.sky.com/story/ukraine-inva ... d-12553977

And while prior to that accidental release, Putin made gestures in his speeches claiming he didn't want to occupy Ukraine, his position - as you laid out - is that Ukraine demilitarize and, at the point of the guns of Russia's military, declare itself "neutral" and that it will never oppose Russian interests. Even if we question the roots and legitimacy of the current Ukrainian government, what Putin is demanding can't in any meaningful sense be characterized as recognizing the right of Ukrainians to self-determination. At best, he's demanding Ukraine be a client state of Russia. Which, sure, I get why he wants that. But that doesn't make it an objective of an invasion that I'm going to agree with.

A) The Maidan Coup: This war didn't just suddenly begin this week—if anything, this is Russia taking a decisive step toward ending a conflict that the US created with their 2014 coup in Ukraine. This isn't some conspiracy theory—we even have a smoking-gun leaked phone call between then-Assistant Secretary of State for European and Eurasian Affairs Victoria Nuland (now Joe Biden's Under Secretary of State for Political Affairs) and then-US Ambassador to Ukraine Geoffrey Pyatt openly discussing who they're going to put in power after overthrowing Ukraine's democratically-elected government.

I revisited this (I hazily recall when it was initially leaked), and I don't really see a smoking gun here. Yeah, the US is engaged in a level of meddling in the affairs of the Ukrainian state that I don't support. But I spent the last couple days trying to find evidence that the United States actively trained, armed or otherwise coordinated the efforts of Euromaidan militants, to no avail. Would it surprise me that there was a deeper level of involvement of the United States than what we have evidence for right now? No, and if you have the receipts I will not be even slightly surprised (or favorable to US actions in that scenario). But right now this seems more like a hypothesis than unimpeachable fact. Mostly, the assertions that the 2014 revolution was a U.S.-led coup comes from, well, Russian state accusations. Which are fine, but not proof positive. Notably, I tried to find some comments from Russia when that phone call was leaked and at the time they didn't assert that it was proof that the U.S. was orchestrating a coup, more that it was embarrassingly shoddy statecraft (the "fuck the EU" being considered the particularly salacious bit at the time, it seems). this seems like two imperial states pointing at each other and saying "you're the bad actor here" when the reality is neither seems that interested in allowing Ukraine to determine its own affairs!

Just as it has done in Central America, the Middle East and North Africa, the US government then achieves these ends by backing the worst and most violent extremist elements (oh, sorry, I mean "moderate rebels") to act as muscle in the country whose government they're trying to overthrow this week. Which in the case of Ukraine, meant far-right neo-Nazi militias, the most notorious of which is the Azov Battalion (which has since been fully and officially incorporated into the Ukrainian military). Ukrainian neo-Nazi crimes committed against ethnic Russians include—but are by no means limited to—burning them alive, strangling or beating them to death with baseball bats in the streets of Odessa in broad daylight and murdering dozens of children.

You will hear no argument from me that in military conflict, both sides engage in activity any right-thinking person would call morally abhorrent. I'm hesitant to take claims made by Russian state media at face value (as I would be hesitant to cite Radio Liberty or whatever), but I think even if we leave out some of the more disputable claims, broadly accepted sources like UNESCO have documented, for example, the mines that ended up inspiring the Alley of Angels. I'm not sure any of this justifies Russia's invasion of Ukraine, however.

And while the Azov Battalion is wretched, the sheer exclusivity with which it's pointed to by pro-russian folks I follow as evidence of the total nazification tends to lead me to believe that it's more anomaly than randomly plucked example of ubiquitous neo-nazi infiltration at all levels of Ukrainian government. It's also not hard to find connections between Russia and its own fascist and neo-nazi allies. Vorobyev's Russian Imperial Movement has been training neo-nazis and spreading death and terror in Eastern Ukraine with the tacit approval of the Russian state since 2008 and Russia has direct ties with the neo-nazi Hungarian National Front. This isn't to minimize the ugliness of Azov Battalion and other ultra right military wings operating in Ukraine, but as we're rightly skeptical of U.S. claims to be primarily motivated by freedom in our international interventions when supporting "freedom fighters" in other countries as so forth, I just think skepticism of Russian motivation is warranted here. Sadly, most countries have grotesque examples of neo-nazi prevalence in their society. It's both abhorrent and worth fighting, while at the same time perhaps not rising the level of justification for military invasion.

B) NATO: The press seems to be doing all they can to minimize the role NATO played in the lead-up to all this, but it's certainly key to contextualizing how we got here. After the collapse of the Soviet Union and upon the reunification of Germany, Russia was given the impression by Western powers that NATO would not be further expanded east of Germany (Gorbachev has made several statements to this effect over the years). While there wasn't a formal written agreement, it was understood by the West that Russia would view continued NATO expansion eastward—not unreasonably, mind you—as a very real cause for concern. Nevertheless, since 1991 NATO has added 14 new member states, ALL of which are east of Germany, 5 of which are right on Russia's border. It is not unreasonable for Russia to have sought some kind of security guarantee in the midst of all this, especially as there began to be talk of admitting a country that the US had just fomented extremist anti-Russian sentiment in.

Until the actual invasion, I was inclined to think that the importance of NATO was significantly higher than it is in Putin's calculus. The case against the importance of NATO is laid out here. I don't know if I'd co-sign everything in that piece, but I think it at least suggests that Putin and Russia's concerns about NATO have been inconsistent over time and complicate a picture where NATO expansion has been an easy predictor of eventual future conflict. The reality is Ukraine was absolutely not going to become a member of NATO for a variety of reasons, and even if it somehow had a chance of joining that was at minimum a decade out.

More to the point, as someone who has wanted to see NATO unwound and to see a re-ordering of the post-cold war landscape combined with large scale military de-escalation - Putin cannot possibly be described as a friend to someone of that project. His actions have guaranteed the legitimacy of NATO in the west for at least a decade. If you're an unaligned country in Eastern Europe, you see in Ukraine that the only thing protecting you from Russian invasion is NATO membership. In Western Europe, we already see Germany increasing its military funding and there's already talk of a E.U. militarization that closely aligned to, you guessed it, NATO. If Putin wanted to see NATO fade to irrelevance, this has been a severe miscalculation. If, instead, he wanted to see a return to something like a bi-polar imperial "east vs west' new cold war, where NATO is countermanded by Russia's own sphere of influence and client states, the invasion may not be a bad move.

C) Provocation (on the part of the US, not Russia): It's ludicrous to characterize what we're seeing now as "unprovoked Russian aggression." First off, if Putin was really the war-hungry 21st Century Genghis Khan that he's being painted as, why did he not take this action eight years ago when the US did the coup in Ukraine, or at any point in the meantime up until right now? He's arguably shown great restraint as civilians were shelled day in and day out and slaughtered by neo-Nazis in Donbass. He has sought a peaceful solution through diplomatic means for eight years now, and at every turn, the US has told him to go fuck himself. He sought an answer and some sort of security guarantee with regard to Ukraine membership in NATO. He fought for the Minsk Peace Accords to be implemented and actually followed, which would have included an immediate ceasefire, withdrawal of heavy weaponry and equipment, release of POWs, monitoring by the OSCE, humanitarian aid; plus elections, constitutional reform and dialogue on interim self-government for Donetsk and Luhansk. Again, all of these attempts at negotiating a peaceful solution were rebuffed—for eight years. All the while, the US was pouring more than 650 tons(!) of "lethal aid" into Ukraine and using its most vulnerable citizens as expendable pawns in their Imperialist chess game—not to mention putting a blockade on them, which, given what they were already experiencing, was unspeakably sadistic.

The reason for waiting until is possibly/probably at least partially demographic. When Putin took power he oversaw an impressive expansion in the birth rate of the country. That baby boom is now going to make the 18-30 demographic cohort the largest in russian for the next two decades - probably the maximum length of time Putin has left as a head of state at age 69. This coincides with a recent order that all russian men in that age cohort provide at least one year of military service. So a perfectly reasonably explanation for "why now" is because we're about to enter the period in Putin's time in charge when the Russian military will be at its largest.

Now, is Vladimir Putin a bad guy? Uh, yeah. Duh. Most leaders on the world stage are bad guys, nearly all of whom have an amount of blood on their hands that is unfathomable to the mind of any decent, non-murdering human being—whether that blood was accumulated through presiding over drone programs, coup d'états, wars or having journalists and dissidents whacked. Debating if Putin is slightly worse than this or that dictator or authoritarian strongman (or US president) in a world run almost exclusively by textbook sociopaths isn't particularly relevant when analyzing current events, the current event at hand being rapidly escalating tensions between the two nations who, between them, hold 90% of the world's nuclear arsenal. My point being, this military invasion into Ukraine is not the result of a bored Putin sitting in the Kremlin war room having a moustache-twirling brainstorming session about how he can further solidify his Marvel supervillain image to the Western world. It's largely the result of years of bad and dangerous decisions on the part of Washington that could get us all killed, and I think that's the most relevant point of discussion here.

To be clear, yes, Putin choosing the military option can certainly be condemned as it is indisputably a violation of international law and Putin did have a couple of other potential options on the table instead of going all in on the most extreme one; and most importantly, as wiser men than myself have put it...

I mostly agree with this, and to be clear I don't think American involvement didn't play a part - either with NATO expansion or with its deep involvement in Ukrainian politics - I guess I just think that in this instance our involvement is secondary or tertiary on the ranking of the "whys" of this conflict. Russia is its own imperial power with its own concerns, both "local" and global. While it has some legitimate concern of NATO, I maintain this was the absolute most catastrophic way to handle NATO expansion, and I think Putin - a right wing Nationalist himself - views Ukraine as historically Russia and has made statements to that affect. While western actions may have been part of the fuel of the fire, I believe US/western actions alone would be insufficiently motivating to Putin if he didn't have more expansive, imperial ambitions himself that are rooted in his own russian "blood and soil" ethno-nationalism. It's down now, but he wrote a history of Ukraine and made it available on the russian government website - probably available on wayback machine and in it, and in his other speeches given in the last few weeks, he seems to make it clear to me that his vision of "independent" ukraine is still one that necessarily serves Russian interests.

I guess there's a question of "what I'd like to see happen." If any world leader decides to call me up, here's what I'll recommend:

1. End of hostilities, full removal of russian forces from Ukraine - including eastern ukraine and crimea;
2. Free and fair elections conducted in ukraine under international watch to rectify and clarify issues around the 2014 revolution/coup (depending on perspective);
3. Free and fair elections conducted in the republics of Donetsk and Luhansk,and Crimeria. On this I fully agree with the statement put out by Marxist Tendency (Russia):

Self-determination of the Donbas

Before discussing a future peace settlement, it is necessary to point out the main thing: the people of the Donbas have the right to self-determination. And this self-determination must be predicated on a free, democratic choice. Any indication that the fate of the Donbas should be decided by “all Ukrainians”, the government of Ukraine, or, even more so, the United States and Russia, is a betrayal of the democratic principle of the right to self-determination, no matter how it is presented.

Those who deny the right of the Donbas to self-determination say that it is “not a people”; they argue that it belongs to the “Ukrainian” or “Russian” people, depending on the nationalist inclinations of the speaker. They go so far as to deny the ability of the inhabitants of the Donbas to make an independent choice in principle. None of this stands up to scrutiny. In fact it comes down to shameful chauvinism and the denial of democratic rights to four million people.

However, firstly, upholding the right to self-determination does not mean automatic support for any separatism. We unconditionally recognise the right to self-determination of the DPR and LPR, and recognise the democratic decision of their people, whatever it may be. But we also consider it possible to speak about the most-progressive ways of exercising self-determination from the point of view of general interests of the working class and the fight for socialism. We believe that the choice, within the framework of self-determination, should proceed from the prospect of future cooperation and comradeship between the workers of Kiev, Donetsk and Moscow; unity between a miner and a programmer, a doctor and a teacher; between all of those who create value in society. That is why the choice must be free and conscious.

Secondly, we refuse to recognise a vote at gunpoint, with the imperialists and their satellites’ fingers on the trigger, as self-determination. A genuine democratic choice is possible only in conditions of political democracy and freedom of opposition. But at the moment, the authorities of the republics have degraded into corrupt clients controlled by Russia, and the opposition is being persecuted. Self-determination of the DPR and LPR is a matter for the future democratic and labour movement, which, in deciding on the fate of the Donbas, will inevitably act contrary to the existing authorities in the republics.

Full statement: https://www.marxist.com/statement-on-pu ... nd-lpr.htm (and a later statement fully condeming the russian invasion, which I unreservedly agree with: https://www.marxist.com/no-to-war-with- ... ention.htm)

My broader and more abstract hope is that if Russia and Ukraine can still broker a peace, it can still undo some of the damage to the larger political landscape in terms of unwinding NATO legitimacy and, in a very high-concept way, hopefully continuing the work of envisioning and working towards a social ordering that relies on international solidarity between peoples and the emaciation from state and empire.

But, you know, I'll settle for some kind of peace and safety for all afflicted by war, regardless of root causes and consequences.

[Flex]

On the personal front, we spent time on Sunday with our Russian friend (and actually a friend of ours whose parents are in Belarus, they've been sheltering in place since the war started. Not sure if there's been any change since Belarus formally committed troops to the invasion). Turns out my friend's cousin was actually in Russia on business when hostilities broke out and wasn't able to get back to Ukraine. He ended up in Poland but his 70 year old mother can't/won't leave and the rest of his family (quite obviously and rightly) won't just leave her. So he had to go back into Ukraine knowing that he wouldn't be allowed to leave again and he'd be drafted into the fighting. So I guess he was issued his equipment and now my friend is waiting to hear if he's just staying in their hometown or if he's going to get sent to Kiev. None of the rest of the family is willing to leave anyone else at this point.

In my head and heart I am sure that I would do the exact same thing if my wife and children were in a warzone, but I am insanely, insanely grateful that such a choice has never been put in front of me.

The rest of my friend's family, as I think I said, is in Russia. All of them oppose the war with the exception of one sister who refuses to "talk politics" with my friend and probably supports the war. Her husband's family are midwesterners from Nebraska and haven't checked in to see how my friend's family is doing or how she is at all since the war broke out. Friend is quite worried about growing anti-russian sentiment (she sends her kids to russian school here in denver). I think she has good reason to be worried. The jingoism dial is definitely already being cranked and I think it will only get worse.

[Dr. Medulla]

Friend is quite worried about growing anti-russian sentiment (she sends her kids to russian school here in denver). I think she has good reason to be worried. The jingoism dial is definitely already being cranked and I think it will only get worse.

That so many still reactively conflate state or government with people is distressing as hell. Like, that shouldn't even by an anarchist critique but a simple awareness of pluralism, but once people get ginned up tribalism takes over.

[Flex]

[revbob]

Pat Robertson Claims Vladimir Putin Is 'Compelled by God' to Attack Ukraine in Unhinged Rant

https://secondnexus.com/pat-robertson-p ... =gtakinsta

Cant believe that insane piece of shit is still alive.

[Dr. Medulla]

Pat Robertson Claims Vladimir Putin Is 'Compelled by God' to Attack Ukraine in Unhinged Rant

https://secondnexus.com/pat-robertson-p ... =gtakinsta

Cant believe that insane piece of shit is still alive.

Just another example of how (supposed) Christians make Christianity unappealing.