Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Politics and other such topical creams.
Stefano1972
User avatar
Long Time Jerk
Posts: 566
Joined: 29 Oct 2020, 6:55pm
Location: Italia

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by Stefano1972 »

JennyB wrote:
12 May 2023, 10:28am
Stefano1972 wrote:
12 May 2023, 3:38am
Howard Beale wrote:
30 Apr 2023, 2:59am
Stefano1972 wrote:
28 Apr 2023, 3:56pm
Good stuff, Stefano, thanks for that. The book definitely sounds like it's worth checking out. The author mentioned Stephen F. Cohen—I'd also highly recommend his writings and interviews for insight into how we arrived at the current state of US/Russian relations.
Thanks Howard, unfortunately I noticed that some people in the Clash message didn't understand anything.
They'll be good at collecting records and bootlegs but if Joe could come back he'd kick them one by one in the butt.
You guys really think Joe was a pure leftist, don't you. That's adorable.

If you dislike us so much, perhaps you can take your circle jerk somewhere else?
Of couse, Joe was a pure conservative :mrgreen:
Anyway, i think you don’t know exactly about what you’re speaking.
Cheers
https://www.wiesenthal.com/about/news/w ... hly-4.html
____________________
"STAY HUMAN"
- Vik Arrigoni

“Where love rules, there is no will to power, and where power predominates, love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.”
- Carl Gustav Jung

Stefano1972
User avatar
Long Time Jerk
Posts: 566
Joined: 29 Oct 2020, 6:55pm
Location: Italia

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by Stefano1972 »

____________________
"STAY HUMAN"
- Vik Arrigoni

“Where love rules, there is no will to power, and where power predominates, love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.”
- Carl Gustav Jung

FarawayTowns
Bang Ice Geezer
Posts: 167
Joined: 20 Jan 2020, 5:13pm

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by FarawayTowns »

I've raised this and the Azov battalion with friends and been told that my information was out of date and no longer applicable. It appears that once Putin invaded any previous or current Ukrainian Nazi links became irrelevant.

Stefano1972
User avatar
Long Time Jerk
Posts: 566
Joined: 29 Oct 2020, 6:55pm
Location: Italia

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by Stefano1972 »

FarawayTowns wrote:
12 May 2023, 4:06pm
I've raised this and the Azov battalion with friends and been told that my information was out of date and no longer applicable. It appears that once Putin invaded any previous or current Ukrainian Nazi links became irrelevant.
The same for me.
Yet it would be enough to take a look at the Twitter profile of Eduard Dolinsky, director of the Ukrainian Jewish committee, to begin to realize certain contradictions.
But unfortunately it seems that many have decided to put their brains in mothballs.
We are not having a good time.
https://twitter.com/edolinsky
____________________
"STAY HUMAN"
- Vik Arrigoni

“Where love rules, there is no will to power, and where power predominates, love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.”
- Carl Gustav Jung

Howard Beale
Bang Ice Geezer
Posts: 172
Joined: 16 Jun 2008, 1:51am

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by Howard Beale »

JennyB wrote:
12 May 2023, 10:28am
Stefano1972 wrote:
12 May 2023, 3:38am
Howard Beale wrote:
30 Apr 2023, 2:59am
Stefano1972 wrote:
28 Apr 2023, 3:56pm
Good stuff, Stefano, thanks for that. The book definitely sounds like it's worth checking out. The author mentioned Stephen F. Cohen—I'd also highly recommend his writings and interviews for insight into how we arrived at the current state of US/Russian relations.
Thanks Howard, unfortunately I noticed that some people in the Clash message didn't understand anything.
They'll be good at collecting records and bootlegs but if Joe could come back he'd kick them one by one in the butt.
You guys really think Joe was a pure leftist, don't you. That's adorable.

If you dislike us so much, perhaps you can take your circle jerk somewhere else?
Didn't notice the new posts in this thread till just now. JennyB, respectfully—I never came on here to start beef with anyone. I honestly didn't think my opinions would be that controversial, and as I said in my initial return post last year, I do like the folks here, which is why I even posted again in the first place. I'm kind of old school—I would've thought that a political forum would welcome civil debate between those with diverging opinions (that's basically how it was during my original run here). Flex and I had several good faith debates that hopefully we both got something out of. I know I did. I was always polite to Doc and offered to debate him on Russia/Ukraine and his reaction was basically to incoherently scream "FASCIST!" and take his ball and go home. Would I be correct in assuming at this point that the only discussion allowed in The Dictator is hand-wringing over Donald Trump's latest antics or posting memes mocking rednecks in flyover country? And how is that not basically one giant circle jerk?

And as for those implying that I'm some Clashy-level troll intentionally shitposting, that's ridiculous. Yeah, because trolls are really known for writing detailed posts, extensively citing their sources and going out of their way to remain polite as they're being smeared :rolleyes:

As for Joe—ha, no way! God bless 'im, and his heart was in the right place, but as even TeddyB has clarified, the boys were all basically just standard-issue liberals. If he were with us today, I highly doubt Joe would know what the fuck is going on in Ukraine or know any of the backstory. He very likely would have signed off on that Banderite band's "London Calling" cover along with the rest of the guys.


FarawayTowns wrote:
12 May 2023, 11:22am
I posted some stuff about Ukraine on here at the beginning of the war. But as time went on I gave up discussing it (not just here but in general) as I found that I only end up getting called a Putin apologist or a useful idiot. So concluded that it wasn't worth falling out with friends over it.
Never underestimate the power of Western propaganda. Most effective in the world.

Stefano1972
User avatar
Long Time Jerk
Posts: 566
Joined: 29 Oct 2020, 6:55pm
Location: Italia

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by Stefano1972 »

Ukraine losing, risks direct war with Moscow' Biden threatens to put pressure on Congress and scare the world, reports the magazine Newsweek. Yet military intelligence had warned of slowing down NATO on that losing front. The accusations of Obama's 'Putinologist' Rebekah Koffler.
Is something perhaps changing in the US outlook?
https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-has- ... on-1855503
Attachments
IMG_8451.jpeg
____________________
"STAY HUMAN"
- Vik Arrigoni

“Where love rules, there is no will to power, and where power predominates, love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.”
- Carl Gustav Jung

Flex
User avatar
Mechano-Man of the Future
Posts: 35805
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:50pm
Location: The Information Superhighway!

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by Flex »

Stefano1972 wrote:
02 Jan 2024, 2:25pm
Ukraine losing, risks direct war with Moscow' Biden threatens to put pressure on Congress and scare the world, reports the magazine Newsweek. Yet military intelligence had warned of slowing down NATO on that losing front. The accusations of Obama's 'Putinologist' Rebekah Koffler.
Is something perhaps changing in the US outlook?
https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-has- ... on-1855503
Just a friendly FYI, Newsweek was bought out a few years ago and it's basically now on par with Newsmax and other extreme far right "news" organizations. Maybe there's a changing sentiment re: Ukraine in the U.S. but I'd suggest other sources to illustrate it. And that's no fault of yours, Newsweek is deliberately trying to be as opaque as possible about their funding and political agenda by trading on their old history as a "respectable" news source.

Addendum: and Koffler is a Fox News Senior Editor now and a Bannonite.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

Pex Lives!

Stefano1972
User avatar
Long Time Jerk
Posts: 566
Joined: 29 Oct 2020, 6:55pm
Location: Italia

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by Stefano1972 »

Flex wrote:
02 Jan 2024, 2:31pm
Stefano1972 wrote:
02 Jan 2024, 2:25pm
Ukraine losing, risks direct war with Moscow' Biden threatens to put pressure on Congress and scare the world, reports the magazine Newsweek. Yet military intelligence had warned of slowing down NATO on that losing front. The accusations of Obama's 'Putinologist' Rebekah Koffler.
Is something perhaps changing in the US outlook?
https://www.newsweek.com/joe-biden-has- ... on-1855503
Just a friendly FYI, Newsweek was bought out a few years ago and it's basically now on par with Newsmax and other extreme far right "news" organizations. Maybe there's a changing sentiment re: Ukraine in the U.S. but I'd suggest other sources to illustrate it. And that's no fault of yours, Newsweek is deliberately trying to be as opaque as possible about their funding and political agenda by trading on their old history as a "respectable" news source.

Addendum: and Koffler is a Fox News Senior Editor now and a Bannonite.
Thank you for the clarification. But what matters most are the words of Obama's former Russia analyst. And, despite having a different political background, I think she said things that are quite acceptable.
____________________
"STAY HUMAN"
- Vik Arrigoni

“Where love rules, there is no will to power, and where power predominates, love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.”
- Carl Gustav Jung

Flex
User avatar
Mechano-Man of the Future
Posts: 35805
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:50pm
Location: The Information Superhighway!

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by Flex »

Stefano1972 wrote:
02 Jan 2024, 2:41pm
Thank you for the clarification. But what matters most are the words of Obama's former Russia analyst. And, despite having a different political background, I think she said things that are quite acceptable.
Thanks for sharing the article, but agree to disagree.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

Pex Lives!

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 116002
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Flex wrote:
02 Jan 2024, 2:31pm
Just a friendly FYI, Newsweek was bought out a few years ago and it's basically now on par with Newsmax and other extreme far right "news" organizations. Maybe there's a changing sentiment re: Ukraine in the U.S. but I'd suggest other sources to illustrate it. And that's no fault of yours, Newsweek is deliberately trying to be as opaque as possible about their funding and political agenda by trading on their old history as a "respectable" news source.
Huh. I had no idea, which I suppose supports your suggestion of opacity. It used to be that Time was the conservative mainstream magazine and Newsweek was the liberal one, tho by the 90s, when Democrats fully embraced neoliberalism, the line was quite blurred. I didn't know Newsweek had gone stealth nuts, tho.
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Flex
User avatar
Mechano-Man of the Future
Posts: 35805
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:50pm
Location: The Information Superhighway!

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by Flex »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
02 Jan 2024, 3:47pm
Huh. I had no idea, which I suppose supports your suggestion of opacity. It used to be that Time was the conservative mainstream magazine and Newsweek was the liberal one, tho by the 90s, when Democrats fully embraced neoliberalism, the line was quite blurred. I didn't know Newsweek had gone stealth nuts, tho.
Yeah, here's a good SPLC article on it: https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/202 ... hard-right
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

Pex Lives!

Dr. Medulla
User avatar
Atheistic Epileptic
Posts: 116002
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:00pm
Location: Straight Banana, Idaho

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Flex wrote:
02 Jan 2024, 3:59pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
02 Jan 2024, 3:47pm
Huh. I had no idea, which I suppose supports your suggestion of opacity. It used to be that Time was the conservative mainstream magazine and Newsweek was the liberal one, tho by the 90s, when Democrats fully embraced neoliberalism, the line was quite blurred. I didn't know Newsweek had gone stealth nuts, tho.
Yeah, here's a good SPLC article on it: https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/202 ... hard-right
Well, that was just a barrel full of ugly. I guess I'll stick to good ol' USA Today for my news!
"I never doubted myself for a minute for I knew that my monkey-strong bowels were girded with strength, like the loins of a dragon ribboned with fat and the opulence of buffalo dung." - Richard Nixon, Checkers Speech, abandoned early draft

Stefano1972
User avatar
Long Time Jerk
Posts: 566
Joined: 29 Oct 2020, 6:55pm
Location: Italia

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by Stefano1972 »

Flex wrote:
02 Jan 2024, 3:22pm
Stefano1972 wrote:
02 Jan 2024, 2:41pm
Thank you for the clarification. But what matters most are the words of Obama's former Russia analyst. And, despite having a different political background, I think she said things that are quite acceptable.
Thanks for sharing the article, but agree to disagree.
Agreed, everyone has their own ideas and it is right that we should all respect honest different points of view.
I would ask you just one thing, just so I can have more enrichment, what doesn't convince you in Koffler's article?
____________________
"STAY HUMAN"
- Vik Arrigoni

“Where love rules, there is no will to power, and where power predominates, love is lacking. The one is the shadow of the other.”
- Carl Gustav Jung

JennyB
User avatar
Mossad Van Driver
Posts: 22257
Joined: 16 Jun 2008, 1:13pm
Location: Moranjortsville

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by JennyB »

Flex wrote:
02 Jan 2024, 3:59pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
02 Jan 2024, 3:47pm
Huh. I had no idea, which I suppose supports your suggestion of opacity. It used to be that Time was the conservative mainstream magazine and Newsweek was the liberal one, tho by the 90s, when Democrats fully embraced neoliberalism, the line was quite blurred. I didn't know Newsweek had gone stealth nuts, tho.
Yeah, here's a good SPLC article on it: https://www.splcenter.org/hatewatch/202 ... hard-right
Yeah. My best friend's partner used to be high up at Newsweek. He hightailed it out of there right before this happened. Saw the writing on the wall, and, as a gay Black man, wasn't too inclined to stay.
Got a Rake? Sure!

IMCT: Inane Middle-Class Twats - Dr. M

" *sigh* it's right when they throw the penis pump out the window." -Hoy

Flex
User avatar
Mechano-Man of the Future
Posts: 35805
Joined: 15 Jun 2008, 2:50pm
Location: The Information Superhighway!

Re: Nothing about the war in Ukrain?

Post by Flex »

Stefano1972 wrote:
02 Jan 2024, 5:45pm
Agreed, everyone has their own ideas and it is right that we should all respect honest different points of view.
I would ask you just one thing, just so I can have more enrichment, what doesn't convince you in Koffler's article?
Okay, since you asked: generally, I find the entire article full of vague rhetoric but lacking in detailed analysis or factually verifiable claims. A lot of it reads like Koffler just personally dislikes Biden. The key paragraphs seem to be this:
Putin's strategy, which he developed over the course of 20 years, sought to exploit U.S. vulnerabilities, studied by Russia for decades, in order to keep Washington from entering conflict on Russia's periphery. Moscow was determined to reestablish its strategic security perimeter lost in the aftermath of the collapse of the USSR. Those vulnerabilities included threats like blackout warfare—using cyberattacks, space weapons, electro-magnetic pulse (EMP) strikes, cutting undersea internet cables, and if all else fails, launching nuclear weapons.
There's no evidence presented about how the Biden administration has failed to deal with vulnerabilities, just as a basis of evaluating the administration's job. I guess the insinuation is that the Biden administration couldn't do these things and support Ukrainian resistance, but that's extremely silly. The U.S. has huge amounts of resources at its disposal to do all of the above and still support Ukraine and the author doesn't provide any evidence at all for her claims that the Biden administration has failed in addressing any or all of those vulnerabilities. She made the claim, it's her obligation to provide the evidence.
Closing these vulnerabilities or developing counter-measures would require serious intellectual firepower and significant funding. Instead, Biden chose to use the American people as the cash cow and Ukrainians as the flesh to throw in Putin's meat grinder. To cover up for its failures while sucking U.S. taxpayers dry, Washington deployed a propaganda narrative insisting that it was helping Ukraine fight for its democracy. Ukraine, the most corrupt country in Europe, is no more of a democracy than Russia is.
The hyperbole about U.S. spending is misleading at best. The total aide (including non-military humanitarian aide we've sent to Ukraine by end of 2023 is $75 billion. For comparison, the state of Virginia's budget is $81 billion. By share of GDP, our contribution to Ukraine's war effort is below Lithuania. It's simply immaterial to U.S. budgeting, which is an apparently pretty important piece of Koffler's argument, which is that we've overspent on this fight and can't do the real work to deter Russia that's needed.

Also, the assertion that Ukraine and Russia are both equally undemocratic has no measurable or quantifiable support. All systems that attempt to capture these things find Russia significantly more autocratic and less democratic than the (quite imperfect) government of Ukraine. Here's just one such system (which places Ukraine as the 92nd - mixed governance - most democratic country listed and Russia as 144th and an autocracy): https://www.democracymatrix.com/ranking

There's also a bunch of assertions that Ukraine is losing the war, which is all evidence-free. The long term trends of the conflict are that the battle lines have gotten entrenched and neither side is making much progress. Koffler also omits all context for the delay in the next Ukraine funding package, which is that Republicans who support funding Ukraine want the funding tied with draconian anti-immigrant immigration policies. That's not a good thing!

And this is more just an opinion, I also think it's weird that she approvingly cites the Monroe Doctrine as the analogous policy that Russia is modeling its own "sphere of influence" policies on. But of course the Monroe Doctrine was quite evil! The left position, properly, was to support opposition to the U.S. when it was exercising that doctrine. Being anti-Monroe Doctrine was anti-imperialist! Now, Russia may be creating it's own Monroe Doctrine in East Europe but as leftists and anti-imperalists aren't we supposed to oppose such efforts? Similarly, the hypothetical of Mexico hosting Chinese or Russian weapons. if that happened, it would be a grotesque moral monstrosity for the United States to invade Mexico! And I'd look warily at any supposed leftists or anti-imperalists who claimed the real blame lay with Mexico or Russia/China and not the country doing the invading. I seriously can't belive that in a scenario where the United States decided to invade Mexico for not being subservient enough to its neighbor state, that the anti-imperalist position would be to justify U.S. actions.

I think overall I don't find the great power/sphere of influence stuff compelling because we should be opposing those power formulations!

Sorry, there may be more around Ukrainian self-determination which the author steamrolls over but the little guy just woke up from his nap so duty calls. You get the idea, anyways.
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a bowl of soup
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a rolling hoop
Wiggle, wiggle, wiggle like a ton of lead
Wiggle - you can raise the dead

Pex Lives!

Post Reply