No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

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Flex
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Flex »

gkbill wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 10:04am
Hello,

I don't know how many (if any) follow women's soccer/football here in the US but a report was issued about several male head coaches in the NWSL professional league and sexual aggression/assault/abuse of players. The full report (it's long) is here:
https://www.kslaw.com/attachments/000/0 ... 1664809048

A good summary article is here:
https://www.sportingnews.com/us/soccer/ ... hye6w3nps0
Yeah, I enjoy watching (or maybe enjoyed in the past tense) NWSL. The initial behavior uncovered was disturbing enough but the extent of the malfeasance throughout the leak is genuinely horrific. Just an astounding failure to protect women, and also incidentally destroy the credibility of the league.
In the words of Jean-Paul Sartre: "Au revoir, gopher."

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

gkbill wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 2:08pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 11:42am
gkbill wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 11:37am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 11:35am
gkbill wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 11:29am


Hello,

I really only know soccer coaches. The men addressed in the report were coaches of professional teams and exploited their position because several women felt the coach controlled their livelihood (playing time, etc.). I believe soccer has more males coaching females than other sports. I would guess this goes on across sports - how much in other sports? I don't know. I know several other incidents that weren't addressed - mainly youth and college coaches.
Whoops—exceedingly vague wording on my part. I meant across college soccer. :disshame:
Hello,

Across the soccer field (Hello Marky)? There's a few coaches married to former players - some began the relationship post playing, some began while the woman was playing. I can think of half a dozen off the top of my head.
No, I mean is the kind of abuse described in this report—is it common on men's soccer teams, too (your sense, anyway)? I'm curious whether this seems like something rooted in the power dynamics between the sexes or is it in coaching culture more broadly.
Hello,

The abuses described in the report were heterosexual. There's only 3 women coaching men's collegiate teams and no females coaching men's professional teams (head coaching). I would wager the abuse on the men's side is physical and/or verbal. Very anecdotally, women's soccer is more straight than women's basketball - again, I am very limited in my knowledge of women's basketball and sexual assault. I do not know any studies investigating sexual orientations of women's sports participants - does anyone know of any?
I'm curious whether male coaches are more willing to abuse female athletes because they don't fear a response (physical, that is) that they might from male athletes. Not that women couldn't kick an older guy's ass, only whether there's a greater confidence(?) to unleash their monstrous behaviour.
"And so the sailor goes, 'I don’t know, but it’s driving me nuts!'” - Woodrow Wilson to David Lloyd George, Paris Peace Conference, 1 February 1919

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by gkbill »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 4:08pm
gkbill wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 2:08pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 11:42am
gkbill wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 11:37am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 11:35am


Whoops—exceedingly vague wording on my part. I meant across college soccer. :disshame:
Hello,

Across the soccer field (Hello Marky)? There's a few coaches married to former players - some began the relationship post playing, some began while the woman was playing. I can think of half a dozen off the top of my head.
No, I mean is the kind of abuse described in this report—is it common on men's soccer teams, too (your sense, anyway)? I'm curious whether this seems like something rooted in the power dynamics between the sexes or is it in coaching culture more broadly.
Hello,

The abuses described in the report were heterosexual. There's only 3 women coaching men's collegiate teams and no females coaching men's professional teams (head coaching). I would wager the abuse on the men's side is physical and/or verbal. Very anecdotally, women's soccer is more straight than women's basketball - again, I am very limited in my knowledge of women's basketball and sexual assault. I do not know any studies investigating sexual orientations of women's sports participants - does anyone know of any?
I'm curious whether male coaches are more willing to abuse female athletes because they don't fear a response (physical, that is) that they might from male athletes. Not that women couldn't kick an older guy's ass, only whether there's a greater confidence(?) to unleash their monstrous behaviour.
Hello,

I don't think there is any fear of physical reprisal from male or female players. It's strictly a power play - I control your playing time...how bad do you want to play/remain in the team? What can you do the enhance your playing time? Sometimes the coach says this, sometimes the player thinks it and the coach takes advantage of the player. There's a quote very similar to this in the report.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Flex »

I assume the financial precarity of women's pro soccer plays a factor: there's no other game in town and the players don't have nearly the leverage they would if they were men in almost any other league.

Addendum: a travesty all around given, beyond all the ethical consideration, the high quality of play in the NWSL.
In the words of Jean-Paul Sartre: "Au revoir, gopher."

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by gkbill »

Flex wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 5:30pm
I assume the financial precarity of women's pro soccer plays a factor: there's no other game in town and the players don't have nearly the leverage they would if they were men in almost any other league.

Addendum: a travesty all around given, beyond all the ethical consideration, the high quality of play in the NWSL.
Hello,

The precarious nature of the league (the 3rd attempt at female professional soccer here in the US) was a factor mentioned be several players. The league is divided as some players have tremendous leverage (a few have told the league what cities they would or wouldn't play for) and others are/were scraping by financially so no leverage. Prominent USWNT players can pretty much dictate where they will play (a few have already). Male players have leverage as they can threaten transfer it they are unhappy (although there are desperate male players as well).
Last edited by gkbill on 05 Oct 2022, 5:41pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

gkbill wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 5:24pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 4:08pm
gkbill wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 2:08pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 11:42am
gkbill wrote:
05 Oct 2022, 11:37am

Hello,

Across the soccer field (Hello Marky)? There's a few coaches married to former players - some began the relationship post playing, some began while the woman was playing. I can think of half a dozen off the top of my head.
No, I mean is the kind of abuse described in this report—is it common on men's soccer teams, too (your sense, anyway)? I'm curious whether this seems like something rooted in the power dynamics between the sexes or is it in coaching culture more broadly.
Hello,

The abuses described in the report were heterosexual. There's only 3 women coaching men's collegiate teams and no females coaching men's professional teams (head coaching). I would wager the abuse on the men's side is physical and/or verbal. Very anecdotally, women's soccer is more straight than women's basketball - again, I am very limited in my knowledge of women's basketball and sexual assault. I do not know any studies investigating sexual orientations of women's sports participants - does anyone know of any?
I'm curious whether male coaches are more willing to abuse female athletes because they don't fear a response (physical, that is) that they might from male athletes. Not that women couldn't kick an older guy's ass, only whether there's a greater confidence(?) to unleash their monstrous behaviour.
Hello,

I don't think there is any fear of physical reprisal from male or female players. It's strictly a power play - I control your playing time...how bad do you want to play/remain in the team? What can you do the enhance your playing time? Sometimes the coach says this, sometimes the player thinks it and the coach takes advantage of the player. There's a quote very similar to this in the report.
Okay, thanks for the insight.
"And so the sailor goes, 'I don’t know, but it’s driving me nuts!'” - Woodrow Wilson to David Lloyd George, Paris Peace Conference, 1 February 1919

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

"And so the sailor goes, 'I don’t know, but it’s driving me nuts!'” - Woodrow Wilson to David Lloyd George, Paris Peace Conference, 1 February 1919

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

"And so the sailor goes, 'I don’t know, but it’s driving me nuts!'” - Woodrow Wilson to David Lloyd George, Paris Peace Conference, 1 February 1919

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

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revbob
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by revbob »

This reminds me of the old Quebecois line that the white frenchies need to have more babies.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

revbob wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 12:39pm
This reminds me of the old Quebecois line that the white frenchies need to have more babies.
When francophone Quebeckers discovered nationalism, they shed a lot of the Catholicism, which has led to fewer kids, which makes nationalists fearful of being swamped by anglos in the future. Damned if you do …
"And so the sailor goes, 'I don’t know, but it’s driving me nuts!'” - Woodrow Wilson to David Lloyd George, Paris Peace Conference, 1 February 1919

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by revbob »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 2:09pm
revbob wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 12:39pm
This reminds me of the old Quebecois line that the white frenchies need to have more babies.
When francophone Quebeckers discovered nationalism, they shed a lot of the Catholicism, which has led to fewer kids, which makes nationalists fearful of being swamped by anglos in the future. Damned if you do …
NOt so much the anglos, they were more concerned about the darker skinned francophones.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

revbob wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 2:41pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 2:09pm
revbob wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 12:39pm
This reminds me of the old Quebecois line that the white frenchies need to have more babies.
When francophone Quebeckers discovered nationalism, they shed a lot of the Catholicism, which has led to fewer kids, which makes nationalists fearful of being swamped by anglos in the future. Damned if you do …
NOt so much the anglos, they were more concerned about the darker skinned francophones.
It’s hard to tell what the hate/fear more, but, yes, Haitians and Algerians somehow never quite speak proper French. Huh.
"And so the sailor goes, 'I don’t know, but it’s driving me nuts!'” - Woodrow Wilson to David Lloyd George, Paris Peace Conference, 1 February 1919

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by revbob »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 2:47pm
revbob wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 2:41pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 2:09pm
revbob wrote:
17 Nov 2022, 12:39pm
This reminds me of the old Quebecois line that the white frenchies need to have more babies.
When francophone Quebeckers discovered nationalism, they shed a lot of the Catholicism, which has led to fewer kids, which makes nationalists fearful of being swamped by anglos in the future. Damned if you do …
NOt so much the anglos, they were more concerned about the darker skinned francophones.
It’s hard to tell what the hate/fear more, but, yes, Haitians and Algerians somehow never quite speak proper French. Huh.
Mai oui

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Mimi »

It still surprises me that women leaders deal with this kind of questioning.
https://www.npr.org/2022/11/30/11398620 ... e-question

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