No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

JennyB wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 8:42pm
The awful legislature wasn't able to pass any of these bills during the most recent session because they were too busy fighting about redistricting, but for next session, I anticipate bills calling for prohibiting helping people cross state lines, prohibiting the termination of ectopic pregnancies (which will kill actual people) and I even heard rumblings that they are going to try and prohibit abortions in other states for people who conceived in MO - like, say, you're driving from Denver to Indianapolis and you spend the night in St. Louis, have sex and get pregnant and then leave the next day. Party of small government, you say?
I think I've mentioned this before, but those kinds of laws have such horrible parallels with fugitive slave laws and the Dred Scott decision. Ending constitutional protection for abortion already compromises a woman's citizenship rights, but those kinds of laws would being them even closer to the slave's non-citizen status.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Flex »

JennyB wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 8:42pm
We had a program the other night with the medical director of our local Planned Parenthood and an OBGYN in private practice (who happens to be a friend and member of my synagogue). The PP doctor is always great to hear from, but I think what struck a lot of people, that they didn't really think about before, is the ramifications of how doctors practice medicine. She had a patient last week whose water broke at 16 weeks and she kept saying "thankfully it's this week and not next week" because while the fetus was no longer viable, it still had a heartbeat. In MO now, abortion is only permitted if the pregnant parent's life is in danger, and it seems like that's a grey area. Doctors are going to be violating the Hippocratic oath. St. Louis has a world class medical facility through Barnes Jewish Hospital/Washington University. Why would anyone want to come here now? Why would anyone send their kid to college here? Why would anyone want to move here for a job?
Yeah, I can't remember if it was observed here but someone mentioned yesterday this is going to precipitate a total cultural and economic realignment. And in probably unpredictable ways, of course. Ultimately, the country will be even more polarized, less interconnected, and the most vulnerable in the least well governed states will be even less supported. I'm glad it sounds like you're going to keep fighting against that tide.
So our short term plan at NCJW is to work with the Missouri Abortion Fund, which funds only abortion procedures, to pay for accommodations and transportation for patients who want to go to Illinois to get an abortion. There are two clinics (one independent and one PP) right across the river - so about 10 minutes from downtown St. Louis. Our long term plan is to get involved in some kind of lawsuit challenging this ruling as violating the establishment clause, since Judaism does not believe life begins at conception and the health of the birthing person is paramount. Abortion is actually required in some circumstances.
This makes total sense to me, and I've seen you and others explain this issue. What are the chances this works? Especially if the lawsuit ends up in front of something resembling the current court?

As a side note, in Colorado (and I assume in other abortion states neighboring non-abortion states) were talking about how to handle the influx of patients. Ideally, you'd set up more clinics along the border of other states but you run into the issue that a lot of the towns and counties are under Republican control and are hostile to incoming facilities. So you need to elect local officials who are going to either block or unwind zoning shenanigans and so forth that functionally keep clinics out even if it's legal here in the state.

I also think you'll need other infrastructure: places to stay, eat, etc. while coming for your procedure and any recovery period. You know Colorado - a lot of these border communities are tiny. It's an interesting long term issue.
The awful legislature wasn't able to pass any of these bills during the most recent session because they were too busy fighting about redistricting, but for next session, I anticipate bills calling for prohibiting helping people cross state lines, prohibiting the termination of ectopic pregnancies (which will kill actual people) and I even heard rumblings that they are going to try and prohibit abortions in other states for people who conceived in MO - like, say, you're driving from Denver to Indianapolis and you spend the night in St. Louis, have sex and get pregnant and then leave the next day. Party of small government, you say?
I think it's interesting that, at least so far, my understanding is the ruling preserved the right to interstate travel. Is that wrong? I imagine that's one of the next major battlegrounds. Ugh.
Part of me wants to get the fuck out of Missouri, but most of me thinks I need to stay and fight. And as much as I give it grief (our "pizza," our morans, our best fans in baseball BS), I really do love St. Louis.
Yeah, it's one of the problems with the "just move" response. Obviously, a lot of people can't just move for various social and economic reasons but even if you could theoretically up and go, people tend to love where the live and don't want to go! Unfortunately, this country has a history of great migrations as a reaction to oppressive local governance and I wonder if we're in for another wave.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

Flex wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 7:58pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 5:59pm
The talk about the possibility of Republicans seeking to ban abortion at the national level suggests that they think federal law can overrule state law on the issue. If that's the case, then, federal law legalizing abortion should be possible, no? It's a jurisdiction issue, right, as to which level of government holds on health care.
I'm just spitballing, smarter people probably have better angles on this, but I think the supreme court gets around this completely logical reasoning by pointing out the legal standard they made up and then lied about the history of is one of "historical tradition" and they can just say the u.s. has no historical tradition of abortion but it has one to a right to life from conception. That's a total lie on multiple levels, but their latest ruling is all rank bullshit too, so what the fuck do they care?
Yeah, given how this is all about politics thru the courts, the legal justification serves the desired ends. But it does seem to me that the Dobbs decision says there's no constitutional protection, not there's some kind of constitutional prohibition. If it goes back the legislatures, then it should be in play. But, obviously, I'm no lawyer.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by JennyB »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 9:14pm
JennyB wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 8:42pm
The awful legislature wasn't able to pass any of these bills during the most recent session because they were too busy fighting about redistricting, but for next session, I anticipate bills calling for prohibiting helping people cross state lines, prohibiting the termination of ectopic pregnancies (which will kill actual people) and I even heard rumblings that they are going to try and prohibit abortions in other states for people who conceived in MO - like, say, you're driving from Denver to Indianapolis and you spend the night in St. Louis, have sex and get pregnant and then leave the next day. Party of small government, you say?
I think I've mentioned this before, but those kinds of laws have such horrible parallels with fugitive slave laws and the Dred Scott decision. Ending constitutional protection for abortion already compromises a woman's citizenship rights, but those kinds of laws would being them even closer to the slave's non-citizen status.
They really do. It's terrifying.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla »

JennyB wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 8:42pm
We had a program the other night with the medical director of our local Planned Parenthood and an OBGYN in private practice (who happens to be a friend and member of my synagogue). The PP doctor is always great to hear from, but I think what struck a lot of people, that they didn't really think about before, is the ramifications of how doctors practice medicine. She had a patient last week whose water broke at 16 weeks and she kept saying "thankfully it's this week and not next week" because while the fetus was no longer viable, it still had a heartbeat. In MO now, abortion is only permitted if the pregnant parent's life is in danger, and it seems like that's a grey area. Doctors are going to be violating the Hippocratic oath. St. Louis has a world class medical facility through Barnes Jewish Hospital/Washington University. Why would anyone want to come here now? Why would anyone send their kid to college here? Why would anyone want to move here for a job?
Further to this, in a way, I read speculation that this would jeopardize IVF treatment because the process necessarily disposes of some fertilized specimens. So, those actively seeking to have a child would be inhibited by anti-abortion laws. Madness.
"And I said, 'I ate hot-buttered corn all night.' Anyway, about the Soviet Union." - Winston Churchill, "Iron Curtain" speech, 5 March 1946

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by JennyB »

Flex wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 9:20pm
JennyB wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 8:42pm
We had a program the other night with the medical director of our local Planned Parenthood and an OBGYN in private practice (who happens to be a friend and member of my synagogue). The PP doctor is always great to hear from, but I think what struck a lot of people, that they didn't really think about before, is the ramifications of how doctors practice medicine. She had a patient last week whose water broke at 16 weeks and she kept saying "thankfully it's this week and not next week" because while the fetus was no longer viable, it still had a heartbeat. In MO now, abortion is only permitted if the pregnant parent's life is in danger, and it seems like that's a grey area. Doctors are going to be violating the Hippocratic oath. St. Louis has a world class medical facility through Barnes Jewish Hospital/Washington University. Why would anyone want to come here now? Why would anyone send their kid to college here? Why would anyone want to move here for a job?
Yeah, I can't remember if it was observed here but someone mentioned yesterday this is going to precipitate a total cultural and economic realignment. And in probably unpredictable ways, of course. Ultimately, the country will be even more polarized, less interconnected, and the most vulnerable in the least well governed states will be even less supported. I'm glad it sounds like you're going to keep fighting against that tide.
So our short term plan at NCJW is to work with the Missouri Abortion Fund, which funds only abortion procedures, to pay for accommodations and transportation for patients who want to go to Illinois to get an abortion. There are two clinics (one independent and one PP) right across the river - so about 10 minutes from downtown St. Louis. Our long term plan is to get involved in some kind of lawsuit challenging this ruling as violating the establishment clause, since Judaism does not believe life begins at conception and the health of the birthing person is paramount. Abortion is actually required in some circumstances.
This makes total sense to me, and I've seen you and others explain this issue. What are the chances this works? Especially if the lawsuit ends up in front of something resembling the current court?

As a side note, in Colorado (and I assume in other abortion states neighboring non-abortion states) were talking about how to handle the influx of patients. Ideally, you'd set up more clinics along the border of other states but you run into the issue that a lot of the towns and counties are under Republican control and are hostile to incoming facilities. So you need to elect local officials who are going to either block or unwind zoning shenanigans and so forth that functionally keep clinics out even if it's legal here in the state.

I also think you'll need other infrastructure: places to stay, eat, etc. while coming for your procedure and any recovery period. You know Colorado - a lot of these border communities are tiny. It's an interesting long term issue.
The awful legislature wasn't able to pass any of these bills during the most recent session because they were too busy fighting about redistricting, but for next session, I anticipate bills calling for prohibiting helping people cross state lines, prohibiting the termination of ectopic pregnancies (which will kill actual people) and I even heard rumblings that they are going to try and prohibit abortions in other states for people who conceived in MO - like, say, you're driving from Denver to Indianapolis and you spend the night in St. Louis, have sex and get pregnant and then leave the next day. Party of small government, you say?
I think it's interesting that, at least so far, my understanding is the ruling preserved the right to interstate travel. Is that wrong? I imagine that's one of the next major battlegrounds. Ugh.
Part of me wants to get the fuck out of Missouri, but most of me thinks I need to stay and fight. And as much as I give it grief (our "pizza," our morans, our best fans in baseball BS), I really do love St. Louis.
Yeah, it's one of the problems with the "just move" response. Obviously, a lot of people can't just move for various social and economic reasons but even if you could theoretically up and go, people tend to love where the live and don't want to go! Unfortunately, this country has a history of great migrations as a reaction to oppressive local governance and I wonder if we're in for another wave.
I honestly don't know the answers to your questions. I'm pretty sure though that everything is now up to the states, right? Including the interstate travel part? And who knows with MO - they try batshit stuff all the time.

Sorry I didn't reply individually - in all of my years on IMCT, i still don't know how to quote separate paragraphs. :shifty:
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by JennyB »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 9:26pm
JennyB wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 8:42pm
We had a program the other night with the medical director of our local Planned Parenthood and an OBGYN in private practice (who happens to be a friend and member of my synagogue). The PP doctor is always great to hear from, but I think what struck a lot of people, that they didn't really think about before, is the ramifications of how doctors practice medicine. She had a patient last week whose water broke at 16 weeks and she kept saying "thankfully it's this week and not next week" because while the fetus was no longer viable, it still had a heartbeat. In MO now, abortion is only permitted if the pregnant parent's life is in danger, and it seems like that's a grey area. Doctors are going to be violating the Hippocratic oath. St. Louis has a world class medical facility through Barnes Jewish Hospital/Washington University. Why would anyone want to come here now? Why would anyone send their kid to college here? Why would anyone want to move here for a job?
Further to this, in a way, I read speculation that this would jeopardize IVF treatment because the process necessarily disposes of some fertilized specimens. So, those actively seeking to have a child would be inhibited by anti-abortion laws. Madness.
Oh yeah - though I imagine some of the more conservative folks see it as a sin in the first place.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Flex »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 9:26pm
Further to this, in a way, I read speculation that this would jeopardize IVF treatment because the process necessarily disposes of some fertilized specimens. So, those actively seeking to have a child would be inhibited by anti-abortion laws. Madness.
My father in law is an IVF specialist and used to practice in Louisville, KY. My wife remembers when she was growing up her mom and dad worried they were going to find letter bombs in their mailbox. Now he's finishing out his career in California, fortunately, otherwise he'd probably be in for an early retirement.

EDIT: me write good
Last edited by Flex on 25 Jun 2022, 9:36pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Flex »

JennyB wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 9:28pm
I honestly don't know the answers to your questions. I'm pretty sure though that everything is now up to the states, right? Including the interstate travel part? And who knows with MO - they try batshit stuff all the time.
Either way, presumably the anti-woman faction is going to be using the same playbook they just succeeded with: keep pushing the edges of what can be allowed/prohibited and chip away until you can create fertile ground for the outright ban.
Sorry I didn't reply individually - in all of my years on IMCT, i still don't know how to quote separate paragraphs. :shifty:
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Howard Beale »

Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 9:22pm
Flex wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 7:58pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 5:59pm
The talk about the possibility of Republicans seeking to ban abortion at the national level suggests that they think federal law can overrule state law on the issue. If that's the case, then, federal law legalizing abortion should be possible, no? It's a jurisdiction issue, right, as to which level of government holds on health care.
I'm just spitballing, smarter people probably have better angles on this, but I think the supreme court gets around this completely logical reasoning by pointing out the legal standard they made up and then lied about the history of is one of "historical tradition" and they can just say the u.s. has no historical tradition of abortion but it has one to a right to life from conception. That's a total lie on multiple levels, but their latest ruling is all rank bullshit too, so what the fuck do they care?
Yeah, given how this is all about politics thru the courts, the legal justification serves the desired ends. But it does seem to me that the Dobbs decision says there's no constitutional protection, not there's some kind of constitutional prohibition. If it goes back the legislatures, then it should be in play. But, obviously, I'm no lawyer.
This article touches on that:
Wouldn’t any federal law just be challenged at the Supreme Court?

Should Congress be able to pass a law enshrining the right to abortion for all Americans, then surely some conservative states will seek to overturn the law, saying that the federal government is exceeding its authority.

If it were to go up to the Supreme Court, then conservative justices would presumably look unfavorably on any attempt to limit individual states’ rights when it comes to abortion. After all, Dobbs repeatedly asserts that Roe and Casey erred by removing the abortion issue from the states. Similarly, any attempt to put in place a federal law that would restrict abortion for all would seemingly conflict with the Supreme Court’s position that it should be left to the states to decide. That said, the dissenters warned that there was nothing in the Dobbs majority opinion that limited passing federal legislation to restrict or ban abortion throughout the United States.
I think you and Flex are correct, though, that the Court will contort themselves in whichever way they need to in order to justify their decision.


Flex wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 8:26am
Colorado, as the example I'm familiar with since I live here, has gone from Republican control to democratic control over the course of my living here. As a result, strong abortion protections were put in place and yesterday they clicked in and we have some of the strongest protections in the country. Abortion access to the moment of birth, passed by Democrats. The Republican party is uniformly committed to ending those protections (and are running on doing so). Pretty much every state where abortion isn't about to be made illegal is run by Democrats.

I wouldn't tell anyone they have to vote for anyone, or vote at all. I really don't give a fuck what anyone does. But the idea that democrats and republicans are functionally the same on abortion doesn't seem to square with how we see different states handling this issue.
Oh, at the state level, sure. I agree with you. Sorry, I should've been more clear on that.

Flex, in general you make a lot of good points—many of which I agree with—and I'll clarify that I wasn't saying that codification of Roe would necessarily be the bulletproof protection for abortion rights that we'd ideally like to see, but it seems bizarre to dismiss it out of hand when it's the solution the Democrats have proposed and that Biden (and Obama) explicitly ran on. All I'm really saying is that Dems should attempt to do something, rather than continue to do nothing. On-the-ground activists like Jen are who give me some hope; not anyone in DC.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Flex »

Howard Beale wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 10:54pm
Flex, in general you make a lot of good points—many of which I agree with—and I'll clarify that I wasn't saying that codification of Roe would necessarily be the bulletproof protection for abortion rights that we'd ideally like to see, but it seems bizarre to dismiss it out of hand when it's the solution the Democrats have proposed and that Biden (and Obama) explicitly ran on. All I'm really saying is that Dems should attempt to do something, rather than continue to do nothing. On-the-ground activists like Jen are who give me some hope; not anyone in DC.
Thanks and yeah, I think we're in the same ballpark here. As I said, I think they should pass something. I guess I just find it harder to muster up the same anger when I feel pretty bleak about the ultimate result. Also, I think congressional dems badly bungled this response. The poetry and shit. It's telling that you have usually pretty center-left party folks expressing anger at the non-response to yesterday's verdict. Whether it's for deliberately machiavellian reasons we're seeing this and/or the lethargy of a system that is/has become totally unresponsive to popular small-d democratic will becomes almost beside the point on a certain level. It's all just very depressing.

And yeah, structurally we're in it as a state (and town/county) fight now. I guess to try to get positive, there's real opportunity to make some difference there, and folks like Mrs. B doing real good work to help people even in the face of an ugly wave that's crashing on us.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Howard Beale »

Flex wrote:
25 Jun 2022, 11:07pm
Thanks and yeah, I think we're in the same ballpark here. As I said, I think they should pass something. I guess I just find it harder to muster up the same anger when I feel pretty bleak about the ultimate result. Also, I think congressional dems badly bungled this response. The poetry and shit. It's telling that you have usually pretty center-left party folks expressing anger at the non-response to yesterday's verdict. Whether it's for deliberately machiavellian reasons we're seeing this and/or the lethargy of a system that is/has become totally unresponsive to popular small-d democratic will becomes almost beside the point on a certain level. It's all just very depressing.
I hear ya—it all gets a bit overwhelming at times.


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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

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Okay, I chuckled:
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

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I thought Obama was a Shiite. :huh:
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

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Dr. Medulla wrote:
26 Jun 2022, 9:40pm
I thought Obama was a Shiite. :huh:
Are they mixing him up with his cousin Saddam?

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