No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

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101Walterton
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by 101Walterton » 05 Dec 2018, 2:05pm


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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Flex » 18 Feb 2019, 2:42pm

Sounds like the new Michael Jackson documentary, Leaving Neverland, revives the sexual abuse allegations that long dogged MJ to, in this environment, damning effect: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/16/opin ... rland.html
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla » 18 Feb 2019, 2:55pm

Flex wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 2:42pm
Sounds like the new Michael Jackson documentary, Leaving Neverland, revives the sexual abuse allegations that long dogged MJ to, in this environment, damning effect: https://www.nytimes.com/2019/02/16/opin ... rland.html
It's curious to me how this is even debatable at this point. That there are people who think this documentary is fraudulent is the head-scratcher.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Flex » 18 Feb 2019, 2:58pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 2:55pm
It's curious to me how this is even debatable at this point. That there are people who think this documentary is fraudulent is the head-scratcher.
people don't want to feel bad or conflicted when they play their pop records, so they lean into cognitive dissonance.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla » 18 Feb 2019, 3:08pm

Flex wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 2:58pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 2:55pm
It's curious to me how this is even debatable at this point. That there are people who think this documentary is fraudulent is the head-scratcher.
people don't want to feel bad or conflicted when they play their pop records, so they lean into cognitive dissonance.
I suppose. Far more sensible, to me, to construct/rationalize an art-from-the-artist argument rather than deny the obvious.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Flex » 18 Feb 2019, 3:17pm

Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 3:08pm
I suppose. Far more sensible, to me, to construct/rationalize an art-from-the-artist argument rather than deny the obvious.
For me, I've just sort of accepted being internally inconsistent on the issue, largely scaling to how much i enjoy the art in question. I have no problem making sure R. Kelly doesn't get a penny from me via streaming or whatever, but I'll be damned if I give up listening to Jerry Lee Lewis or Chuck Berry. With MJ, I'll probably keep the records/CDs I have, but stay away from streaming him or buying product that supports his estate. The recent Ryan Adams example is probably a good edge case: I like his work but I'm okay giving it up because his actions are just too repulsive and I just don't like his stuff enough to overcome the revulsion.

I have an easier time cutting out art in non-music fields that I like after hearing that the creator is awful. I've cut Woody Allen and Louis CK out of my life, even though I genuinely enjoyed the work of both quite a bit. There's just enough other great film and stand-up out there that I don't need to spend my time on either of them. Probably could try the same approach to music, but a life without (say) my favorite Stones or Elvis records feels like a life diminished.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by 101Walterton » 18 Feb 2019, 3:26pm

Flex wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 3:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 3:08pm
I suppose. Far more sensible, to me, to construct/rationalize an art-from-the-artist argument rather than deny the obvious.
For me, I've just sort of accepted being internally inconsistent on the issue, largely scaling to how much i enjoy the art in question. I have no problem making sure R. Kelly doesn't get a penny from me via streaming or whatever, but I'll be damned if I give up listening to Jerry Lee Lewis or Chuck Berry. With MJ, I'll probably keep the records/CDs I have, but stay away from streaming him or buying product that supports his estate. The recent Ryan Adams example is probably a good edge case: I like his work but I'm okay giving it up because his actions are just too repulsive and I just don't like his stuff enough to overcome the revulsion.

I have an easier time cutting out art in non-music fields that I like after hearing that the creator is awful. I've cut Woody Allen and Louis CK out of my life, even though I genuinely enjoyed the work of both quite a bit. There's just enough other great film and stand-up out there that I don't need to spend my time on either of them. Probably could try the same approach to music, but a life without (say) my favorite Stones or Elvis records feels like a life diminished.
But MJ himself wouldn’t benefit from you streaming just his kids and they have done no wrong?
I saw a young girl yesterday (probably about 9 or 10) with her parents in the city and she was wearing an MJ T shirt which just looked wrong.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Flex » 18 Feb 2019, 3:29pm

101Walterton wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 3:26pm
But MJ himself wouldn’t benefit from you streaming just his kids and they have done no wrong?
The Michael Jackson Estate has been engaged in a vicious, decades long smear campaign against his victims - up to and including trying to discredit this new documentary. Screw his kids.*

*That's what he said.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by 101Walterton » 18 Feb 2019, 3:40pm

Flex wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 3:29pm
101Walterton wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 3:26pm
But MJ himself wouldn’t benefit from you streaming just his kids and they have done no wrong?
The Michael Jackson Estate has been engaged in a vicious, decades long smear campaign against his victims - up to and including trying to discredit this new documentary. Screw his kids.*

*That's what he said.
Ok fair enough then.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla » 18 Feb 2019, 3:41pm

Flex wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 3:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 3:08pm
I suppose. Far more sensible, to me, to construct/rationalize an art-from-the-artist argument rather than deny the obvious.
For me, I've just sort of accepted being internally inconsistent on the issue, largely scaling to how much i enjoy the art in question.
I don't think there is any other way of doing it. If we want to be rigorous in applying a moral test for every artist, we'll end up with a very small number of acceptable people (and I suspect that being rigorous would also have a snowball effect of constantly adding to the list of unacceptable sins, thereby shrinking the good pile ever more). So we end up being more hedonists than moralists, filtering outrage by what pleasure we'd have to abandon and whether we're prepared to do that. My preference there is that at least we're being conscious and accepting our minor part in the question rather than divorcing ourselves by denying the problem even exists. Better to socialize these issues rather than compartmentalize and immunize ourselves from bigger questions.
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by WestwayKid » 18 Feb 2019, 3:50pm

Flex wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 3:17pm
Dr. Medulla wrote:
18 Feb 2019, 3:08pm
I suppose. Far more sensible, to me, to construct/rationalize an art-from-the-artist argument rather than deny the obvious.
For me, I've just sort of accepted being internally inconsistent on the issue, largely scaling to how much i enjoy the art in question. I have no problem making sure R. Kelly doesn't get a penny from me via streaming or whatever, but I'll be damned if I give up listening to Jerry Lee Lewis or Chuck Berry. With MJ, I'll probably keep the records/CDs I have, but stay away from streaming him or buying product that supports his estate. The recent Ryan Adams example is probably a good edge case: I like his work but I'm okay giving it up because his actions are just too repulsive and I just don't like his stuff enough to overcome the revulsion.

I have an easier time cutting out art in non-music fields that I like after hearing that the creator is awful. I've cut Woody Allen and Louis CK out of my life, even though I genuinely enjoyed the work of both quite a bit. There's just enough other great film and stand-up out there that I don't need to spend my time on either of them. Probably could try the same approach to music, but a life without (say) my favorite Stones or Elvis records feels like a life diminished.
This is one I'm really struggling with right now. I'm a BIG Ryan Adams fan. I have been for nearly 20 years (since his days with Whiskeytown). His music has been very important to me - it's helped me get through some really dark times - and I also just like listening to it. His music was on regular rotation for me. I'm not sure how to proceed. I won't delete the songs from my library or chuck the CD's/LP's in the trash - but I also can't listen to him right now. I think a lot of how we all answer this question depends on how much we're willing to give up. I agree - I haven't given up listening to Jerry Lee or Chuck - but with someone like MJ - I will no longer listen to him. I enjoy his music - but I will no longer support him and it's more than just about where the money goes - it's about supporting his legacy.
"If they believed in a place called Kokomo, then so did I." - Michael Edward Love

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla » 20 Feb 2019, 10:33am

https://deadspin.com/report-high-school ... 1832745015

Political correctness: Anything that keeps me from being a complete and total asshole to people I think are less than me!
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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by JennyB » 20 Feb 2019, 10:38am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 10:33am
https://deadspin.com/report-high-school ... 1832745015

Political correctness: Anything that keeps me from being a complete and total asshole to people I think are less than me!
Why in the world would anyone think this was OK?
Got a Rake? Sure!

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by Dr. Medulla » 20 Feb 2019, 10:46am

JennyB wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 10:38am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 10:33am
https://deadspin.com/report-high-school ... 1832745015

Political correctness: Anything that keeps me from being a complete and total asshole to people I think are less than me!
Why in the world would anyone think this was OK?
Because it's great to make fun of people who have less power than you! And young women need to be taught that their worth in life begins and ends with their physical appearance. What's wrong with you, Trotsky?
Poonty, boloques, juffmunch, carpoo, snazellfonks.

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Re: No, No, Don't Worry. Sexism is Pretty Much Over.

Post by JennyB » 20 Feb 2019, 10:57am

Dr. Medulla wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 10:46am
JennyB wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 10:38am
Dr. Medulla wrote:
20 Feb 2019, 10:33am
https://deadspin.com/report-high-school ... 1832745015

Political correctness: Anything that keeps me from being a complete and total asshole to people I think are less than me!
Why in the world would anyone think this was OK?
Because it's great to make fun of people who have less power than you! And young women need to be taught that their worth in life begins and ends with their physical appearance. What's wrong with you, Trotsky?
I know, I know.

I used to think cheerleading was the dumbest thing. And I still do, but I am amazed at the athleticism involved. My niece is a cheerleader (I think she might even be the co-captain) at her high school, which is funny because she is the mopiest teen I know. She hates football and barely tolerates basketball. But she loves cheerleading for some reason.
Got a Rake? Sure!

IMCT: Inane Middle-Class Twats - Dr. M

Don't talk shop.

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